Bryan Alvarez on Professional Wrestling for Dummies and F4WOnline | The Fight Game Podcast

0:10 [SPEAKER_00]: What's up, everybody? [SPEAKER_00]: WG here with the fight game podcast and my guest is Brian Alvarez, who this I used to do this podcast on F4W online and only stopped recently, but welcome to the show. [SPEAKER_00]: You and I haven't actually done an interview in quite a long time and people always ask me. [SPEAKER_00]: about how come I don't do shows with you. [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, well, Brian and I kind of have the same role. [SPEAKER_00]: We set Dave up and let Dave go. [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, we'd just be setting each other up to setting each other mind him on a step away. [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't even know if you remember this. [SPEAKER_00]: You probably don't remember this because it was so long ago.

0:52 [SPEAKER_00]: But I set you an email. [SPEAKER_00]: And I had some questions in it about your death of WCW book. [SPEAKER_00]: So we're talking at least 20 years ago that I sent this email to you. [SPEAKER_00]: And if I'm remembering correctly and I could be conflating a conversation we may have had, [SPEAKER_00]: But after you got done writing that book, I seem to remember you saying that you never wanted to write a book again. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if the process or whatever it was. [SPEAKER_00]: And now here we are over 20 years later. [SPEAKER_00]: And not only have you written this third book, but you also wrote another book in between about the WWE things to do before you die. [SPEAKER_00]: So what what change like is it just easier to do now?

1:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you just the answer? [SPEAKER_01]: Garrett is I'm a hypocrite. [SPEAKER_01]: That's the answer. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, geez, how many times is like quit wrestling and kind of I mean the reality is when I wrote death of WCW it was like it was harder than I thought. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's the uh, [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's not like I do a lot of hard things but you know there are things that I sort of have to do but I don't have to write books right now and writing a book was like a goal that I had from when I was like I actually wrote a book about the universe when I was like eight years old or something like that and I actually had my mom help me [SPEAKER_01]: like send it to an actual publisher, like random house or something.

2:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And they actually sent me a rejection notice, which I still have. [SPEAKER_01]: This was when I was like eight years old. [SPEAKER_01]: So I always wanted to write a book, get a book published. [SPEAKER_01]: And so when death of WCW, when that opportunity arose, I was like, all right, I'm gonna write my book. [SPEAKER_01]: 4-ish 2003-2004, I remember when they first had to start writing it, but I had been writing a newsletter every week for nine years. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a lot of words. [SPEAKER_01]: It was as many as day, but I mean, it was 12 pages.

3:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was probably 25,000 words every single week. [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's actually days fault because he said, oh, you're writing about the death of WCW, [SPEAKER_01]: So I may have put my portion of it off for a while and then had to scramble and it was very, very hard and when it was done, my thought was well. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need to do this. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I got something else that I do. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need to add additional work on top of that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I have written my book. [SPEAKER_01]: I accomplished my goal.

3:44 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's it. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, over the next 10 years, it did very well. [SPEAKER_01]: So then it was kind of like, [SPEAKER_01]: See you in better. [SPEAKER_01]: I wrote a good book. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, in 2014, they said, hey, you want to do the expanded edition. [SPEAKER_01]: And my thought then was, well, the expanded edition can largely just be everything we cut out of the first book. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how much could I possibly have to do extra? [SPEAKER_01]: We're just going to put all that stuff back in, update some stuff, and in a way we go. [SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: We did a lot more than that, but it was certainly easier to expand it than to write a new one. [SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't really count that as writing another book.

4:26 [SPEAKER_01]: So then when they approached with the 100 things, WWE fans should know and do before they die, I, you know, it'd been 15 years or so. [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, you know, I could do this. [SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't as bad as death of WCW, but I did kind of stall a little bit and I waited too long. [SPEAKER_01]: And so it was the same thing like, I remember we were on a vacation in Hawaii. [SPEAKER_01]: And like I put the kids to bed and then I would go and start like just howling out these chapters during the middle of what's supposed to be a Hawaiian vacation. [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember when it was over, I was like, I ain't doing this again.

5:07 [SPEAKER_01]: There's like, there's no way. [SPEAKER_01]: I've done two, [SPEAKER_01]: I did one on WCW, I did one on WWE, like I'm done. [SPEAKER_01]: And then Gene metaged me on Facebook, Gene Celassy. [SPEAKER_01]: How did, do you know him? [SPEAKER_01]: Did you know him previously? [SPEAKER_01]: No. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think we might have been Facebook friends. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even remember, honestly, I apologize, Gene, but like he wrote a book, right? [SPEAKER_01]: Like he wrote a book about, roughly, he did adventures for dummies. [SPEAKER_01]: He had done some wrestling books, but he did it dummy's book. [SPEAKER_01]: He did Avengers for dummies. [SPEAKER_01]: And he just like sent me [SPEAKER_01]: I told the story about something different and so I don't want to come off as like a jerk, okay, but I get a lot of emails and messages on various platforms.

5:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Sure. [SPEAKER_01]: So I just got this message from Jean, it was just like, you know, I wrote Avengers for dummies, would you be interested in writing pro wrestling for dummies and like my first thought. [SPEAKER_01]: What's just like, I'm not even going to even answer this. [SPEAKER_01]: What are the chances of this, I mean? [SPEAKER_01]: So, but eventually, I was just like, well, you know, you can talk to him if you want. [SPEAKER_01]: I'll consider it or whatever, you know what? [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't it like this movie that I just did this Mark's movie? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I got, I'm pretty sure that he sent me an Instagram message at first. [SPEAKER_01]: Philip and he's a director and I like for a long time, I didn't even know the Instagram had messaging and then like one day I opened and there's all these messages and there's like god only knows what's in there and one of them was, hey, you know, would you, I'm making a movie we're going to shoot in Portland, would you want to be, you know, the main heel and it was same thing was just kind of like [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't heard a lot of this kind of stuff before, you know, and so it was the same thing.

7:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, should I even answer this email, but I eventually answered it and the next thing I know I did this awesome movie. [SPEAKER_01]: So eventually I was like, yeah, talk to him, you know, let's just see what they say. [SPEAKER_01]: And at first, they weren't interested. [SPEAKER_01]: And um. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was, you know, when I said I would do it, I think it was kind of one of those, well, you know, he's got a lot of followers on Twitter for whatever that's worth. [SPEAKER_01]: And then they were like, hey, you know, you want to do it. [SPEAKER_01]: And so. [SPEAKER_01]: I did it because I kind of had committed, like if they said, yes, I was going to do it. [SPEAKER_01]: But also because when I was a kid, you know, I would go to the bookstore all the time.

7:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I lived in the bookstore. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Love meeting. [SPEAKER_01]: And you couldn't go to a bookstore and not see four dummies books everywhere. [SPEAKER_01]: They're everywhere. [SPEAKER_01]: And so it was like, my god, I could write professional wrestling for dummies. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I said, let's do it. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're done now and I wouldn't I don't I will not jump this time because I try to learn a little something for mystery. [SPEAKER_01]: I won't say I'll never do a book again, but it's going to be a probably a little while before I do another one because it's just really hard doing a book. [SPEAKER_01]: It's really hard doing a book and this is the same thing like they cut probably 40% out of it.

8:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I wrote so much for this book. [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, they got a chop chop chop chop chop chop and I actually like how it turned out even though they chop so much because it is a four dummies book and I did not write a book for dummies like my mistake. [SPEAKER_01]: I wrote Like I was writing for Dave or something and you know they they dummy did up and I actually really like it. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a good book for anybody. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean [SPEAKER_01]: Carl Stern I learned stuff from this book and if Carl Stern can learn something from my book I did something right and you know, I've got friends at your jutsu that, you know, they're like [SPEAKER_01]: I heard, and they're like, oh, here we go.

9:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, they kind of know about this sort of thing, because I don't really talk about it as you do. [SPEAKER_01]: And then, like, they got the book, and they were like, wow, like, that was a really good book. [SPEAKER_01]: I learned a lot about wrestling. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, people, it's just silly thing, but they go like, who's this book for? [SPEAKER_01]: And really, the answer is like, anyone on the earth, [SPEAKER_01]: Like maybe not somebody that has no interest whatsoever, but like if you're a fan, it's a good book for you. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you have a significant other friends, and it was like, why does this guy not come out on Saturday afternoons? [SPEAKER_01]: What's he even watching some wrestling when we could be going, you know, whatever? [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's a good Christmas gift. [SPEAKER_01]: Give him this book. [SPEAKER_01]: And at least they won't ask so many questions afterwards.

9:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I started thinking about how I would have learned about wrestling as a kid. [SPEAKER_00]: And then figuring out a lot of the things that are described in the book just kind of on my own, yes, and going out of my way to try and find information. [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, thankfully for me. [SPEAKER_00]: my dad bought the national. [SPEAKER_00]: So he would bring the national home every day. [SPEAKER_00]: So I got to redave in the early, early 90s, like 1990, 1991, whatever that timeframe was. [SPEAKER_00]: So I knew who he was, but then the national was gone and I was like, well, I will never see or hear this guy again, you know.

10:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And until I, you know, found Eata and subscribe and subscribe to the editor and such, [SPEAKER_00]: I did have to learn about some things just through like really paying attention and kind of reading between the lines just watching wrestling and your book explains like all of that stuff that took me I feel like forever to learn on my own it's like oh all that stuff is like the first three chapters of the book so for somebody who's like kind of interested in wrestling [SPEAKER_00]: but maybe is not like that super diehard yet. [SPEAKER_00]: Like this is actually a good way to kind of get them into it like even more because a lot of this is like, oh, that's how it works.

11:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's how it works. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's the history of that thing that I had this question about. [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's what I got out of it. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm, you know, I went through about, I would say 60% of it, I've finished it, but there's like really good information in there, including, and I know originally, [SPEAKER_00]: brand wasn't really about the history stuff, but there is a lot of history in there. [SPEAKER_00]: Like history going back to like many years ago, like my favorite part was, um, Odysseus. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, if anybody goes all the way back, if anybody has seen the Odyssey, um, Odysseus is in this book.

12:03 [SPEAKER_00]: well we probably generally know most of the stuff that's in though there's still things that you reread and go oh yeah kind of forgot about that or i forgot it happened that way um you know i can just text Dave for some of the stuff but you know y'all it's also good to have that resource well i mean [SPEAKER_01]: I got it right here and I actually never thought about it until you talked about being a kid, but like, you know, when I was a kid, I mean, I'm old and so there were no wrestling books when I was a kid and, you know, there was no, you know, when I first got into wrestling, I mean, I would not have had any access whatsoever to the observer in 1988, like, no clue whatsoever.

12:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would have [SPEAKER_01]: hailed from the book that I have now wrote I would have killed for this book to like understand what was going on and you know I think that I think that I would be very surprised if there was anybody who could read this book and say I knew every last single thing that was in this book because like when I first started writing it it was like [SPEAKER_01]: Who am I going to have read all of this and make sure and it was like I got to get Lance I got to get Carl and I'm going to get Tom like those were the three guys that I sent everything to because [SPEAKER_01]: He has no issue whatsoever with saying, you're an idiot, dude, like I get texts every day from Lance where it's just starts out with, you're an idiot and then he does whatever.

13:50 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the same with Tom, and Tom's, he's out there right now wrestling all the time, which when I started writing, I wasn't. [SPEAKER_01]: So I had these three and I would just send them everything. [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, [SPEAKER_01]: There was so much that I learned. [SPEAKER_01]: I learned so much history from from writing like you talk about the history sections in this book here I mean You should see what didn't make the book. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they're so much stuff that got cut out But I'm on the website [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you never know when I may get to do an expanded. [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, there was just like so much history that I learned. [SPEAKER_01]: And then there was even stuff like, you know, when I was in late 90s, when I was doing, when I first started doing independent wrestling, I worked for a place and there was this guy and Tim Flowers, he had this ring for the ICW [SPEAKER_01]: was built by a guy who built bridges.

14:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And he wasn't like a wrestling ring guy. [SPEAKER_01]: It was just like, hey, we need a ring. [SPEAKER_01]: These are the dimensions. [SPEAKER_01]: You can go look at some other rings, but will you just make us one from scratch? [SPEAKER_01]: And so this guy put this giant spring underneath the ring. [SPEAKER_01]: I guess with the idea that like, you know, if you want something to bounce, you put a spring there. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this frickin' spring, like, you had to weigh about 500 pounds to get this spring to like, bounce. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I'm wondering, [SPEAKER_01]: 65 pounds maybe at the time and so man that thing didn't bounce at all for me. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like hard as a rock. [SPEAKER_01]: And so I mean, I remember writing the chapter and you know, I just wrote like, you know, a real ring doesn't have a spring underneath it because no other ring that I have ever like worked to show on.

15:39 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, help put together in theory. [SPEAKER_01]: None of them ever had a spring, okay? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Lance read this and he was like, dude, you're an idiot. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what do you talk it about? [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, this AWA ring, the early WF rings had springs, like, and I was like, really? [SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, yeah, and he was like, I, you know, I bumped in this ring and this spring sucked, but then, you know, I think he said the AWA ring maybe I can't remember what it was, but it was like, they had a spring in there. [SPEAKER_01]: They actually made it more bouncy. [SPEAKER_01]: And like there was all sorts of stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, he, like, smarten me up about why the six-sided ring sucks because, you know, you know, I mean, this was a good example. [SPEAKER_01]: Like when I say anybody could learn something, if you and Dave mentioned us on a show, you know, we, in some show he was talking about the six-sided ring and he goes, oh, man, the wrestler's loved the six-sided ring.

16:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, brother, you need to read this book because like, [SPEAKER_01]: These wrestlers hated the six-sided ring because it was frickin' hard as a rock. [SPEAKER_01]: And they were these guys doing these like exhibition matches, taken bumps, like onto this six-sided ring. [SPEAKER_01]: And Lance was like, the guy that explained to me like, this is why it doesn't bounce. [SPEAKER_01]: This is why it sucks. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, learn something there. [SPEAKER_01]: So like, there's so much about wrestling that I learned writing it. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's just a lot that anybody could learn from it. [SPEAKER_00]: So professional wrestling for dummies, what I was hoping to see on the cover and maybe this is only on the exclusive autograph editions for you as you cross out dummies and put geeks.

17:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, gosh, this was an opportunity. [SPEAKER_00]: But I did a little bit of research. [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what the first for dummies book was? [SPEAKER_01]: The very first one? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I have no idea. [SPEAKER_00]: DOS for dummies. [SPEAKER_00]: No way. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. [SPEAKER_00]: I use DOS. [SPEAKER_00]: And then the second one was Mac for dummies and then PC for dummies. [SPEAKER_00]: And then in 1994 they went beyond computers. [SPEAKER_00]: And it looks like there are more than 200 million [SPEAKER_00]: And the best seller out of all of them and this one makes complete sense to me because I remember when this came out was Windows 95 for dummy $5 million copies.

18:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Not a surprise. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but what about the copycat brand, which is the complete idiots guide. [SPEAKER_00]: They have a pro wrestling book [SPEAKER_00]: Is that the one Al Banner wrote? [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but I think Russell Crap inducted it at some point. [SPEAKER_00]: Really. [SPEAKER_01]: So I know that Al Banner wrote, I can't remember it was for dummies or idiots guide. [SPEAKER_01]: It might be the idiots guide. [SPEAKER_01]: I just know that when I wrote pro wrestling for dummies, I did hear people go, I bought the original. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think they were talking about the Al Banner one, but I do think Al Banner might have been [SPEAKER_01]: the complete idiots guy to pro wrestling because I think Dave said it was written by a complete idiot.

18:48 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think I think it was a complete idiots, but that did not get good reviews. [SPEAKER_01]: I won't say anything bad about it because I never read it, but I have never met anybody who had anything good to say about the complete idiots. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I, I think you wrote it like totally in K-fab or something. [SPEAKER_00]: I think I bought it when it came out and I was like, [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, like this is not this is the opposite of what I was looking for. [SPEAKER_00]: Like this is like the Stone Age's version of a pro wrestling book. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: So when when you talked about kind of like writing some of the history stuff, like what was like your favorite thing that that you enjoyed writing about like, was it about history or was it about like some of these, uh, [SPEAKER_00]: different things because there's the book spans so many so many years and you've covered like very heavily the last what 30 years of wrestling yeah did you like rewriting that stuff or did you like writing stuff that you hadn't really covered my my favorite stuff was was uh the 1800s that was that was my favorite [SPEAKER_01]: That was my favorite part to write about history wise.

20:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've written the, you know, the Monday night wars in multiple books. [SPEAKER_01]: I've written, you know, the WWE stuff, you know, when I did 100 things, I mean, the 100 things WWE fans should know and do before they die. [SPEAKER_01]: It is not done as well as death of WCW, although to be fair, it's only been six years [SPEAKER_01]: 20 years, I guess it would be, so there's still like a long way to go, but and also because like so much is changed in in WWE, WWE between 2019 and today that, you know, there are things in it obviously that are outdated.

20:54 [SPEAKER_01]: It really was like a history of WWE, um, which is funny because if I recall correctly, the original idea of death of W. was was going to kind of be like a wrestle crap thing, like, uh, the top 10 things that killed W. C. W or something like that. [SPEAKER_01]: And we were going to like make a list of things. [SPEAKER_01]: And then like very shortly as we were right, and I was like, do we just need to do a narrative? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I mean, [SPEAKER_01]: the way that it is right now. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like we're just writing a history but broke it. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so really the death of WCW is the history of WCW from the Crocodile Era on and even before that actually. [SPEAKER_01]: And 100 things WWE fans should know and do before they die.

21:35 [SPEAKER_01]: It's part of 100 things series. [SPEAKER_01]: but it really is a history of WWE and so I really like that book because I also learned a lot having to basically write the history of WWE and try to come up with like what wrestlers have to be in this book and then you have to write a bio of their career and how they fit into [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this book, I'd written basically the history of WCW, I'd then wrote the history of WEE with the hundred things. [SPEAKER_01]: And then this was just like, I got to write the history of wrestling somehow. [SPEAKER_01]: And the history of wrestling is, you know how the history of wrestling is, you want the WWE version, you want the whatever.

22:20 [SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, I got to do my best to write the real history of wrestling. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, for anything, [SPEAKER_01]: obviously from about 1984 on, you've got all of the observers. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: But what about prior to that? [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously there are a lot of books that tackle different people, different whatever, but this was going to be like, what's the history of wrestling? [SPEAKER_01]: When did wrestling start? [SPEAKER_01]: Like, how far back can we go and find references in historical [SPEAKER_01]: like what was wrestling in this country, you know, I think everyone kind of knows now that well, you know, it wasn't completely on the level before Frank gotch, but what does that even mean?

23:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Like was it? [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, I had to try to figure all of this out, um, obviously with help from Carl and a lot of other sources as well, but writing about what wrestling was from the late 1700s on, [SPEAKER_01]: was, I mean, it was just like, I had so much fun doing it, even though it was hard, but like, you know, you learn about king of wrestler, king of wrestlers, Charles, like the first gimmick, like the total gimmick. [SPEAKER_01]: And then you learn about like, well, I mean, everybody could shoot, but I mean, were these really shooting matches prior to, I mean, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: 30 years ago it was like well they were all shooting matches to like the 1920s and then you know in the last 30 years or so people have figured out Nah, it goes a little further back than that and nowadays it's kind of like They've been shooting matches forever and so just kind of like you know piecing that all together and you know reading about Harry Hill, which is really the first promoter you know and and some of the things that he brought into wrestling and [SPEAKER_01]: concepts of gold dust trio brought in and, you know, Frank gotch and like what enormous stars like, you know, Dave argues with all these nerds on Twitter about all this and that and the whole Cogan and this and everything like that, but are those real people that he's talking to by the doubt it, but the point is like all these arguments, it's like, you know, the idea that a whole Cogan is most popular restaurant of all time, I mean.

24:40 [SPEAKER_01]: We got El Santo, we got Ricky Dose and then you go back to like the 1900s, the 1910s, the 1920s. [SPEAKER_01]: And like these, the Frank A. Gach, I mean, this guy was not like a mainstream wrestling star. [SPEAKER_01]: Like even gorgeous George it's like everybody knew gorgeous George is a wrestler he was one of the biggest stars in the entire country like he was a bigger star than many Hollywood stars but he was a wrestler where it's like Frank Gach was a sportsman like he was written about in the newspapers like every newspaper had headlines about Frank Gach he like he was just this [SPEAKER_01]: Ty Cobb or whoever I'm a sports guy, but like, huge, everybody knew the name Frank Godge.

25:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And even just like a gigantic mainstream sports star covered in the newspapers, I mean, a level of fame that you do not even see nowadays. [SPEAKER_01]: Like Roman Reigns, [SPEAKER_01]: nothing when you think about like Frank Gatchen, the 1900s, and then, you know, looking at how Paris and collapsed after he retired, and then the Goldust trio building it up again, and then, you know, the whole Jim Londos era, which nobody knows anything about, because, you know, we were in the middle of a world war, and there were larger things to worry about, and a depression, but there was so much fascinating stuff, and then like the early history of TV, and [SPEAKER_01]: You know, people talk about, oh, there's too much wrestling on nowadays where there's so much blah, blah, blah.

26:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, dude, there was a time in the early 50s where there was like three channels and there was wrestling every single day. [SPEAKER_01]: And you only had three channels. [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, it was impossible to not come across pro wrestling. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, [SPEAKER_01]: You think, oh, man, it was a three hour and 38 minute dynamite and then there was a smack down on USA guys. [SPEAKER_01]: This was nothing like there was so much pro wrestling on national television when there were only three channels back in the early 50 so all this stuff I just was fascinated by [SPEAKER_00]: We'll circle back to that in a second here. [SPEAKER_00]: But you mentioned being active again and wrestling again is that to support the book or did you just get a bug or a can?

26:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't. [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, what happened was, I'll give this short version. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a promotion in, actually I'll go back a little further. [SPEAKER_01]: I did a match with Tom and this team called the Bang Bros who have since changed their name for obvious reasons. [SPEAKER_01]: I came up with this elaborate storyline in my head and suffice to say like there were too many moving parts and it just like it did not work in execution and I was so frustrated when this match was over and I was supposed to be frustrated in storyline but I was also frustrated in a real life that I grabbed the mic and I just go I quit and I threw the mic down and it was like a shoot I was like I'm done I hate this I'm not doing this I'm done I'm [SPEAKER_01]: And then I was like, done, in my head, I was like, that's it, I'm done.

27:43 [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's a promotion in Spokane Relentless. [SPEAKER_01]: And the promoter, he was like, we got this big casino show, and we're bringing in Kurt Engel. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was wondering if you and Tom would like to interview Kurt Engel, and like you could have the audio for your podcast. [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll pay you, and I was like, what? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So Tom and I go and we interview Kurt Angle, and how do you goes up on the side? [SPEAKER_01]: I got paid. [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, this is a grazing that never happened to me. [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, but you had interviewed Kurt before, right? [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like in person, like sitting there with him, like talking to him, and like, did he remember? [SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think so. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he might have. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he did bring up like, why didn't Dave give me five stars?

28:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, brother, I just want you to know, I gave you five stars. [SPEAKER_01]: So please don't. [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so then, you know, it was kind of like, hey, you know, Brian, any time you want to come like we can have you do commentary or something like that or whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: So I started coming to shows. [SPEAKER_01]: I would drive to Spokane and just do commentary with Tom on these shows. [SPEAKER_01]: And in one day, I guess the promoter, like he would have a Tom and he goes, I think Brian would want to do a spot. [SPEAKER_01]: like if we do like a six man, like you and Brian could get involved or whatever, and times like you can ask companies and say no. [SPEAKER_01]: And I asked for me and I was like, [SPEAKER_01]: I guess why not like they're going to do like a fake taser thing or something like that. [SPEAKER_01]: It was like I didn't have do anything but so like I did it and then somehow I was booked after that and you know it's just like even Tom won a wrestle and it was kind of like a tag match, you know, Tom's there.

29:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I know these two guys, you know, let's do it. [SPEAKER_01]: And then like all the sudden I was like there every month and then I'll sudden I'm the Pacific Northwest champion [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I, I, I did bumbershoot this festival in Seattle. [SPEAKER_01]: I got booked for this labor of love in Philadelphia, September. [SPEAKER_01]: I did like four matches or something like that, which was. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what I'm doing, but yeah, I just, and then obviously, once I was wrestling, it was like, I got to bring these books, but so, you know, I was started doing signings as part of the shows and selling merch and everything like that and, and I'm having the time of my life, I'm trying not to get killed, but it was completely unplanned, but it all worked out great.

30:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Hulling me back in. [SPEAKER_01]: I very much appreciate it. [SPEAKER_01]: How are you feeling? [SPEAKER_01]: I told this, I'll try and keep this brief, but in that match that I hated or I quit, or I legitimately quit, the finish involved me doing a centon, the Jeff Hardy. [SPEAKER_01]: I refused to call this Swanton, centon off the top, which is another story for another day. [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, [SPEAKER_01]: It sucks. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I did want it, it was terrible. [SPEAKER_01]: And I should've been watching it back and I was like, I was so embarrassed. [SPEAKER_01]: I was just like, oh God, it's another reason to quit. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm too old, I can't do stuff anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: I used to, like, I used to have a beautiful centon.

30:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I was a gymnast guys. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not trying to like, I had a beautiful centon. [SPEAKER_01]: And this thing was just like, it was so ugly and it was embarrassing and I quit and everything like that. [SPEAKER_01]: So when I came back, [SPEAKER_01]: We did this tag match. [SPEAKER_01]: We actually just six man. [SPEAKER_01]: It was me and Tom and Chris Masters in his story. [SPEAKER_01]: And like Chris Masters was like the coolest guy. [SPEAKER_01]: Like he was the coolest guy and like a huge fan. [SPEAKER_01]: And like he just wanted to talk about 90s wrestling. [SPEAKER_01]: Is he still in good shape? [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he was great. [SPEAKER_01]: Like he's working down in Mexico. [SPEAKER_01]: He like he flew up from Mexico for this show. [SPEAKER_01]: And like, but anyway, it was a three of us. [SPEAKER_01]: And we were gonna do this finish. [SPEAKER_01]: And, [SPEAKER_01]: somebody was like, is there anything you can do off the top?

31:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And I really don't want to do anything off the top because I'm old. [SPEAKER_01]: But like, that very stupid part of me was like, I can do a centon and they were like, all right, well, we'll do this for that and then you come off top with a centon. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, did I want to do a centon? [SPEAKER_01]: No, that thing was a good idea? [SPEAKER_01]: No, was I, [SPEAKER_01]: determined to do it one last time. [SPEAKER_01]: Good. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. [SPEAKER_01]: So we did the match. [SPEAKER_01]: Time came. [SPEAKER_01]: I went up top and I am normally a very safe guy. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't do dumb stuff, but I was like, dude, I'm doing this centon and it is gonna be the nicest looking centon you've ever seen and if I die, I die.

32:25 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm doing it one more time and it's gonna be good. [SPEAKER_01]: And I went up there and I did it. [SPEAKER_01]: And if I do say so myself, it was beautiful. [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember landing and I was like, ow. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, ow, ow. [SPEAKER_01]: because it actually is a Jeff Hardy thing. [SPEAKER_01]: Have you seen how Jeff Hardy does a cent on now? [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, when I like buddy train me and if you touched buddy, [SPEAKER_01]: don't touch buddy. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: You got to be light as a feather. [SPEAKER_01]: And so the centon I always did was just like big laid out. [SPEAKER_01]: And I take a back bump. [SPEAKER_01]: And like maybe the back of my head will graze you, but you ain't going to feel it.

33:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to land on you. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to touch you. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: That's how I've always done it. [SPEAKER_01]: And so. [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously doing that at 51 is a bad idea and it was a very high impact bump and my neck just like was And I remember afterwards the guy like it was like are you all right and I said yeah my bat my neck's just really tight And he goes why do you just squish me like that's what you do like I'll protect myself just squish me and I was like [SPEAKER_01]: I can't, but I know I should. [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, it's not like a serious thing, like numbness or anything like that, but like it's so tight right here. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's been bugging me for four months now. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I have problems turning my head, like it got worse when I did that, uh, the movie filming because I'd take some bump and, and like it's just now today, like feeling almost normal, [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how much money I've spent at chiropractors and like the massage place and you know all of that to just try to put my neck back together from one stupid idea but I mean other than that I feel like if my neck wasn't bugging me I feel great and my goal is to try to remain feeling great by [SPEAKER_01]: trying to watch a lot of Ocada matches because he's a master of getting the most out of his little as possible because I can't do like all of this stuff.

34:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't do a W matches. [SPEAKER_01]: So what can I do where I can entertain people and try to have the best match I can and also not kill myself because I'm old. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's my goal right now and I'm feeling good and hopefully [SPEAKER_00]: you had turned me on to the app, the midlife app, midlife fit club. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I had so, Russell Mania, thanks for us May a 38 from LA. [SPEAKER_00]: That's the point where I was like, okay, I need to do something because the pandemic and everything was really bad. [SPEAKER_00]: We were just drinking wine all night depressed because knowing could do anything.

35:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And my weight had, [SPEAKER_00]: I had like lost a bunch of weight then I got married and then the pandemic and then I had like regained the weight and I was like okay from that day on I was like okay I need to figure this thing out so I guided really strictly [SPEAKER_00]: And I got down, I basically lost all the the way that I had gained and I was, and I was thinking of like, okay, I've kind of plateaued, how can I get to the next level. [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd started to see your Instagram posts about your weighons. [SPEAKER_00]: You would do like check ins or whatever. [SPEAKER_00]: And then I reached out to you and asked you about it and [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like it has really caused me to lose a ton of weight.

36:01 [SPEAKER_00]: That wasn't really my goal, but I have leaned out and been able to keep a decent amount of muscle, which I was really worried [SPEAKER_00]: the traditional way of lifting weights, heavy weights was killing me. [SPEAKER_00]: Like I have arthritis in both of my knees and I have it in my left elbow. [SPEAKER_00]: And so the idea of just lifting these heavy weights again, I was like, it's just not fun anymore. [SPEAKER_00]: So these exercises that in this app have been so great and I'm down like, I'm probably down and weight, [SPEAKER_00]: 30 years ago for me.

36:50 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how that's how down and wait I am and I have goals to continue, but it's really about still keeping the muscle that I want to keep and then slimming down or tightening up or whatever, however you want to say it. [SPEAKER_00]: But I know you've been doing this [SPEAKER_00]: the idea of, I think the whole idea of the app is like we get a certain age, it gets really hard. [SPEAKER_00]: Like how do we continue to exercise and continue to be athletic and continue to do these things? [SPEAKER_00]: Like you've been doing this, like how have you been able to kind of keep up? [SPEAKER_00]: Because you still got to take your shirt off. [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes matches.

37:31 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I, [SPEAKER_01]: If you go on Instagram, there's like a million people that are trying to sell some program or some workout or whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's a million of them. [SPEAKER_01]: But I stumbled on this Jeff Sutherland, who was the guy behind this midlife fit club. [SPEAKER_01]: And he was just like a guy. [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the thing that, and I've told him this before, because I kind of know him now, and he's got a [SPEAKER_01]: His story is basically, I drink all through my forties. [SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted to change in my 50s, but at 50, I didn't.

38:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And finally, at 51, I think he was at a party or something with his wife. [SPEAKER_01]: And he got so drunk that he was embarrassed. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, that was like the last straw for him. [SPEAKER_01]: And so he went out the next day. [SPEAKER_01]: I think he was only on TikTok at the time. [SPEAKER_01]: And he went out the next day, and he just filmed a video with his shirt off. [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, pasties. [SPEAKER_01]: He's not like horribly, [SPEAKER_01]: But he's like, he's got a dad bod and he's got a shape and he's got a belly and he's saggy and he's just like, you know, I, I, uh, it's, I'm just done. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm, I'm going to turn it around today. [SPEAKER_01]: And so he's one of those guides. [SPEAKER_01]: It actually, he didn't just show up on Instagram already in shape.

38:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, oh, you know, who knows what this guy is doing to really look like [SPEAKER_01]: You just see Jeff on day one where he's just like a guy and then what he did was like he filmed his workouts every single day. [SPEAKER_01]: And so once he was like shredded, he made a video showing this day, this day, this day, and you can watch the whole thing in like a minute. [SPEAKER_01]: But it's over [SPEAKER_01]: like this guy got shredded at 51 years old. [SPEAKER_01]: And if you watch his videos, like he's just such a genuine guy, and I don't believe for one second that he's on anything, he swears like, I'm not on anything.

39:49 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just like, [SPEAKER_01]: These are the exercises that I do. [SPEAKER_01]: This is what I eat. [SPEAKER_01]: He puts pictures up every day of like his plates of food, his wife cooks everything, and he's got all, and I was just like, I believe this. [SPEAKER_01]: And the funny thing is like, when I was a kid, [SPEAKER_01]: in like seventh grade way to do shirts and skins basketball and I was so skinny, I was so embarrassed. [SPEAKER_01]: And the guy that motivated me to begin working out was the ultimate warrior. [SPEAKER_01]: And I was so naive at the time, I didn't know anything about steroids. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know anything about anything. [SPEAKER_01]: So like 12 13 14 years old, I'm watching the ultimate warrior, I'm watching Rick Roode.

40:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And as a kid, it's just like, [SPEAKER_01]: All I got to do is consistently train, and I can look like that, and it was all BS, but it was motivation for me, and the key was, I saw them and thought, I can do that, okay? [SPEAKER_01]: And so I got a lot of things in my life like why did I write a newsletter because I got pro wrestling illustrated weekly and was like, I can do that. [SPEAKER_01]: I can probably do better. [SPEAKER_01]: Why did I become a wrestler? [SPEAKER_01]: Because you know, the time I wasn't watching AEW, I was watching, you know, late 80s, WF and I was like, [SPEAKER_01]: I could do that, you know, maybe not like the in WWE F, but like I could be a pro wrestler, you know, and made a backyard promotion, and like all of these different things, like art bills, audio show, like if I had the opportunity, I could do that.

41:23 [SPEAKER_01]: So I saw Jeff Sutherland and his, his like transformation, and it was like, [SPEAKER_01]: I could do that. [SPEAKER_01]: And so like I signed up for his thing. [SPEAKER_01]: And what I liked about it was it was a lot of kettlebells. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: I like kettlebells. [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was kettlebells and body weight. [SPEAKER_01]: And when you're my age and I guess you're age, I think you're are you you're younger close some probably not even a year probably. [SPEAKER_00]: Last year. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like I can't go out there and deadlift heavy and squat heavy and bench heavy like anyone is a younger so it's like I can do body weight I can do kettlebells and I can eat right and I did it and I'm not quite as shredded as he is I think he's he's a little more disciplined than me, but he's he's very disciplined, but [SPEAKER_00]: I think he's got some pretty good genetics.

42:14 [SPEAKER_00]: He does. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, because even when you were saying he was a little out of shape, I was like, oh, he's out of shape, but only because he's he's like working against his is what he's supposed to be. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I mean, if you look at some of the comments and he adds, you know, they're feeling like I wish I looked like you're before like he wasn't that, but I mean, still. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, he is very disciplined. [SPEAKER_01]: He never, he's like when, uh, I think it was Stephanie didn't interview and she goes, you know, I talked to Triple H about Finn Baller and Hunter just goes, I have never seen him cheat ever. [SPEAKER_01]: Like no matter where he is, he's eating right and I'm not like that. [SPEAKER_01]: But. [SPEAKER_01]: I, I'm now very consistent, like, I work out no matter what, even if I'm a hurting, like, okay, maybe I'll do the vacation workout today.

42:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm doing it every day on schedule, I'm eating right 90% of the time. [SPEAKER_01]: And I can honestly say that I have not been this lean. [SPEAKER_01]: since I was a teenager, like I got to go back to like YWF matches when I was like 18, 19 years old, I'm in better shape, like it's a it's a cliche, but I swear to God, I am in better natural shape right now that I have been since probably I was 19 years old. [SPEAKER_01]: There, I'm not on anything. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I take protein shakes, I take creatine and a daily vitamin and like the Costco collagen peptide, which apparently are good for like, but they're not like peptide peptides or like, I'm taking collagen powder and that's it.

43:52 [SPEAKER_01]: But I, [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and now it's like, it is funny because he said the same thing like he's doing interviews. [SPEAKER_01]: We were like, how do you do this? [SPEAKER_01]: It's got to be hard and it's like, it's hard at the beginning, but like once you get, like, really consistent and you get in a groove, it's like, this isn't hard, like, [SPEAKER_01]: If I get a little bit heavier than I like to be, like I just was last Friday, it's like I got on the wagon and I cut 400 calories a day for seven days and I'm right back where I was. [SPEAKER_01]: And now I can like coast for a while and it's like it's easy. [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's one of those things that like it's hard but it's easy.

44:34 [SPEAKER_01]: The hard thing is just like being consistent and doing what's right, that's hard. [SPEAKER_01]: But if you can do that, it's actually really easy to be in really, really good shape even when you're old. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So I can't say enough good things about midlife fit club. [SPEAKER_01]: It's an app. [SPEAKER_01]: I get no money. [SPEAKER_01]: I message the guy rarely, but like, I'm not trying to sell anything for him even though I am. [SPEAKER_01]: Like everyone's check out midlife fit. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: It's so good. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good. [SPEAKER_00]: It's a referral that you believe in. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's how I found it. [SPEAKER_00]: All right, I know we're already quite a bit in, but I did want to hit a couple of other things.

45:17 [SPEAKER_00]: So 20 years plus of F4W online, the website. [SPEAKER_00]: And in 2005, you could not foresee where the internet was going and what you could do with your website. [SPEAKER_00]: looking back like building the business with you and and Tony. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, does it feel like this is kind of, you know, the perfect place or are there still things that you want to do or wish you done differently? [SPEAKER_00]: Because 21 years of this website and I was there, I think in month two and have [SPEAKER_00]: we have so many wrestling podcasts and websites and different things and yet this website has withstood the test of time.

46:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, there's there's two things. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, when I was a kid, I wanted to write books. [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to wrestle, and I wanted to do radio or bell. [SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted to run my own business. [SPEAKER_01]: Like those were the four things I wanted to do. [SPEAKER_01]: And I did all four of them. [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously the two biggest ones that I'm still doing are the podcasts and the website. [SPEAKER_01]: sees the podcast stuff because that's what you all see.

46:57 [SPEAKER_01]: There's clips on YouTube. [SPEAKER_01]: I do two shows a day, sometimes three shows a day, and that's where everyone sees, but there's also the part [SPEAKER_01]: What could I do today? [SPEAKER_01]: There's that business building aspect. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, there's a lot of things about the site that people like. [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of things about the site, the people don't like.

47:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And there are a lot of things about the site that are constantly being worked on behind the scenes. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the person that is one of the most valuable people who does not get any credit whatsoever is Tony. [SPEAKER_01]: He, Edmontoni, is an unsung hero of the site. [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you do not like the site, he is an unsung hero of the site. [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things about Tony that's early on frustrated me is, I like to get things done now.

48:25 [SPEAKER_01]: And Tony, [SPEAKER_01]: is not a person who is going to make a rash quick decision. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, even though I prefer, I want to do it my way. [SPEAKER_01]: I can admit that my way is wrong. [SPEAKER_01]: And I am very thankful that Tony is the way he is because I would have made way more mistakes doing it my way. [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, [SPEAKER_01]: things roll out slowly. [SPEAKER_01]: That's just a way it is. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, people, there are people frustrated about certain things on the site. [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, [SPEAKER_01]: There are going to be things that are slowly improved, but it's not going to be over days or weeks.

49:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, some of these that may even be years or have been changed, we've made the took years to change, crying out loud. [SPEAKER_01]: The observers now, if you click on the observer, it's got a clickable table of content. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: 20 years. [SPEAKER_01]: You know what? [SPEAKER_01]: We got it now. [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of it also is, you know, I do believe that some people [SPEAKER_01]: think that what they want is much easier to do than it actually is, and I'm not even saying that's like you shouldn't do that because I also think that, and I am constantly reminded by Tony that like, let's just go do it then, if you think it's so easy, it's like, why can't? [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yes, exactly, because it's actually not easy. [SPEAKER_01]: So there are a lot of things that we're working on, [SPEAKER_01]: trying to make everything better, and the reality is that in order to stay around for 20 years and try to stay around for 20 more years, as much as people always want nothing to change, and for things to be the way that they always were, there's always things that do change, and you can't keep doing it the old way, or you are not going to be around.

50:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Google made some very, very big changes in regards to what you need to do to be found, to be ranked higher on Google, to have traffic actually find you. [SPEAKER_01]: I cannot survive if it's just like, we don't exist except for the small group of people that already know we exist. [SPEAKER_01]: It has to be available and searchable. [SPEAKER_01]: And like, I don't understand most of this stuff, [SPEAKER_01]: there were some big changes in around 2024 and our traffic just collapsed. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was not something where, oh, it's because you did this or because wrestling, it was like, this was like right after a very big and very like a major WrestleMania.

51:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was not something where like people lost interest in wrestling. [SPEAKER_01]: It was not all of a sudden we made some, like this was just, it was changes that were made. [SPEAKER_01]: we have to evolve and adapt to those changes. [SPEAKER_01]: And every day, it's like, what can we do to make this better? [SPEAKER_01]: What can we do to make that better? [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like a game, you know, it's like, can I win this game? [SPEAKER_01]: Am I losing this game today? [SPEAKER_01]: How can I try to win this game tomorrow? [SPEAKER_01]: And it's, it's, [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to do both, honestly, because I gotta try to concentrate on two completely different things. [SPEAKER_01]: One is this wrestling job, and the other is this business, which are two totally different things.

52:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And trying to get a whole bunch of people on the same page, and there's always gonna be mistakes made, and oh, well, you know, [SPEAKER_01]: That didn't work out. [SPEAKER_01]: Can we not do that again? [SPEAKER_01]: And doing the best we can and there's lots of people involved and there's lots of it's just it's hard. [SPEAKER_01]: But it is it is fun and exciting and the one thing that irritates me most is sometimes I will see comments like he's burned out. [SPEAKER_01]: guys want it you guys want to make me angry it's really easy just say I'm burned out because I really am not burned out like yeah sometimes it 12 30 in the morning after three hours and 38 minutes of dynamite collision in a 38 minute overrun and then you know I wait a half hour for Dave to get ready and then it's one o'clock in the morning and I'm freaking exhausted yeah I probably sound burnt out I'm burnt out in that moment but like [SPEAKER_01]: If we would've done it four hours earlier, it'd been totally different.

53:01 [SPEAKER_01]: No one ever watches Observer Live and goes, this guy's burned out. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: It's noon. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing the show at noon. [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, burned out irritates me because I'm not burned out. [SPEAKER_01]: I wake up every day and I'm like, I'm ready to go. [SPEAKER_01]: What can we do today? [SPEAKER_01]: How can we make this work? [SPEAKER_01]: What failed miserably that we can try to not have fail next time? [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's uh... [SPEAKER_01]: That's the story. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a daily thing. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's a great way to run your business of your still as excited as you were when you were building it and you still have that builder's mindset. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you can do this for many more years than just the 21 years that you've done it so far.

53:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I know what people click on. [SPEAKER_01]: I know, I know like, you know, what tweet somebody clicked on. [SPEAKER_01]: And if they signed up or not, I don't know like what videos do well. [SPEAKER_01]: I know like all this in that. [SPEAKER_01]: I see where we are compared to like other websites and this in that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I do look at it and the thing that really motivates me every day is, we aren't like there are so many, so many different aspects of the site. [SPEAKER_01]: where it's like, there's a lot of room for growth here. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we are underperforming here. [SPEAKER_01]: We are underperforming there. [SPEAKER_01]: Some of the things, like, from a couple of years ago, where we were badly underperforming, now we're like doing great.

54:37 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I see like, wow, you know, that we really turned that around. [SPEAKER_01]: This one is still like, this could be improved. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, how can we focus on this one now? [SPEAKER_01]: But then, you know, this one here, like, there's so many things. [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just like, we got there's so much stuff that we could do, but we got to do it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: All right, two quick things, and then we'll get out here at Dave's cauliflower Allie Club, Hall of Fame induction. [SPEAKER_00]: You did a speech where you tried to count how many words math he may have published in his lifetime up to that point. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And I was thinking about this [SPEAKER_00]: what you would call radio shows, and what people now call podcasts, you've been doing podcasts for so long.

55:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And like you just said, you do sometimes two or three a day. [SPEAKER_00]: Have you thought about where you rank in the most minutes being on air in the podcast platform? [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I have to be, [SPEAKER_01]: near the top. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't know. [SPEAKER_01]: Like you got to think about people like, um, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Howard Stern, who's done it for God only knows how long. [SPEAKER_00]: See, but I would consider his stuff radio, and then I would consider his post-serious stuff. [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think Howard's ever done of what I would call a podcast. [SPEAKER_00]: He's done it. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he starts on airtime, like if you go back, like here's the entire library, how many hours is like Howard Stern have?

56:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you think about all the years that he's been doing it, and if you're thinking like, oh, you know, it's, I don't know how long it is, but it's like three or four hours, whatever it is every day. [SPEAKER_00]: He's only doing it like once a week now. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, now it's like, I think he's very much cut down, but I mean, I have done probably 15,000 podcasts. [SPEAKER_01]: So most of them are an hour or more. [SPEAKER_01]: So I probably done 20,000 hours or more of podcasting slash radio. [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think there could be that many people [SPEAKER_01]: that much. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Rush Limba, probably.

56:54 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how long his career was and he did like three hours a day or something like that five days a week. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, there are there are people who probably have done more than me. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think there's a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't think there is anybody in the world who is written more words than Dave. [SPEAKER_01]: Baby in history. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't imagine there's somebody else that's done 40,000 words a week for 40 years or whatever. [SPEAKER_01]: It just seems inconceivable. [SPEAKER_01]: But it is like it's a lot, a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I don't think I could sit here and say that I've done more than anybody in the history of the world, but I do think I could say that I'm probably near the top.

57:35 [SPEAKER_00]: From a, what we consider podcasting platform, you got to be up there. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, uh, you've got to be in the top. [SPEAKER_00]: I'd want to send something. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I would have to be 1% just for podcasts. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. [SPEAKER_00]: And then. [SPEAKER_00]: We see tons of wrestling podcasts out there right now. [SPEAKER_00]: We see different YouTube folks. [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I can say for my own experience, when I started subscribing to your website, and I was like, oh, he's literally just talking into a mic. [SPEAKER_00]: they're recording it, and then they're uploading it. [SPEAKER_00]: Like that seems like kind of like a doable DIY thing. [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I messed around with it on the side.

58:15 [SPEAKER_00]: But I imagine that people listening to you [SPEAKER_00]: kind of like, went, huh, maybe I can also do this at some point. [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe as a hobby, or maybe even as like a little bit more than a hobby. [SPEAKER_00]: But have even thought about folks who you may have inspired in your own field and even outside of your field. [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, a lot of people have listened to your shows and probably tried to think of like, okay, like, here's how he's doing it. [SPEAKER_00]: Can I do that same thing? [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I was actually laughing about another, not your question, but it was something I someone emailed me yesterday, but I mean, I, I, I, I've had people emailed me that just for like, you know, I've listened to you forever and now I'm going for a job at the local radio station or I started this podcast or whatever, I mean, I think it's cool because like everything I do, I was influenced by somebody else, you know, my whole life has been, oh, [SPEAKER_01]: That person made that look easy.

59:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I should do it. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, whether I was naive or not, it was, you know, inspiring to me. [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, if if I inspired people to do podcasting or anything and they really enjoy doing it, that [SPEAKER_01]: That makes me happy. [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, it was laughing about was I didn't after dark podcast and like 20, 12 or something like that. [SPEAKER_01]: And I had somebody on talk about Bitcoin, oh, wow. [SPEAKER_01]: One of the listeners, he just emailed me yesterday. [SPEAKER_01]: He was like, I just want you to know that like, I listen to that show and I don't remember the whole story, but like, [SPEAKER_01]: two years later he was retired. [SPEAKER_01]: Wow. [SPEAKER_01]: Because of like he listened to my show about Bitcoin, and ended up like so successful that he retired like at 32 or something like that.

59:55 [SPEAKER_01]: And it just made me laugh because on that same show, the guest had said, if you just set up a Bitcoin wallet, I'll send you a half a Bitcoin. [SPEAKER_01]: And like I would just kind of like as Bitcoin. [SPEAKER_01]: I never set up the [SPEAKER_01]: I'd have like six figures of like the coin or something right. [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what it's worth right now, but like that would have been, that was a very, that was this, that was the first worst decision. [SPEAKER_01]: The second was MGF coin, but yeah, so anyway, I influenced the guy to invest in crypto and he retired at 32. [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm very proud of that and happy for him. [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, back to your statement about whether, you know, there was more wrestling on TV back in the 50s.

1:00:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, we have an A, W paper for you this weekend, sure. [SPEAKER_00]: Time is a UFC paper view and Dave still wants to cover UFC, so he's going to figure out a way to watch both of those in some way. [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, last week we had a WWE PLE and also, uh, a NXT and dynamite, uh, head to head, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: And this is your job and you just said you're still inspired watching wrestling is part of the job, but do you think from a fandom standpoint? [SPEAKER_00]: There's too much product and some of it and I'll just use the AEW example because they are the brand that is secondary but hoping to continue to grow.

1:01:32 [SPEAKER_00]: And I had this conversation with Dave on Wrestling Observer Radio about kind of the violence that they have in the blood and in the gods and whether or not they go to that well a little bit too often. [SPEAKER_00]: But do you think having so much product now, which is push to us? [SPEAKER_00]: Where back when you first started your website, 2005, you had WWE, you had TNA. [SPEAKER_00]: And if you wanted to find ROH, you'd go find it. [SPEAKER_00]: If you wanted to find some other promotions, you'd go find it. [SPEAKER_00]: Even UFC was not as easy to find as it is now. [SPEAKER_00]: But now these things are pushed to us. [SPEAKER_00]: So to me, it feels like there's just so much. [SPEAKER_00]: And now I have to pick and choose, [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas I didn't really have to pick and choose before. [SPEAKER_00]: But do you think all of the product that we have today, you think it's too much, do you think it's just the right amount based on the ratings and such?

1:02:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, or do you see a falloff coming because of so much product, do you have any thoughts on that? [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I would say that I think that, [SPEAKER_01]: It's really cool to have raw SmackDown NXT Dynamite and Peelies because like if you're a fan you got a lot of options and I think it's great that there's so many options if you are a wrestling fan. [SPEAKER_01]: With that said, [SPEAKER_01]: I think that ideally raw would be a two-hour show in Netflix. [SPEAKER_01]: I think even the two-and-a-half is a little long. [SPEAKER_01]: I think it should be two hours. [SPEAKER_01]: I think SmackDown should be two hours on USA. [SPEAKER_01]: NXT is fine at two hours.

1:03:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think Dynamite needs to be two hours every week. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I always get pushed back when I talk about the length because AW fans, like the real hardcore fans, they're always like, why would you complain about more for free? [SPEAKER_01]: And I actually wrote something about this in my dynamite report last night because [SPEAKER_01]: You know, dynamite and collision. [SPEAKER_01]: It was a three. [SPEAKER_01]: It was a three hour block and dynamite went two and a half hours and collision went an hour and seven or something like that. [SPEAKER_01]: It ended up being three hours and 37 minutes of A W on Wednesday night. [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I, um, [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't watch collision.

1:03:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I was just like, no, I'm not doing it tonight. [SPEAKER_00]: Like Dave can review it. [SPEAKER_00]: By the way, I still haven't finished dynamite. [SPEAKER_01]: Like I watched dynamite and I was like, I'm not watching collision. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just not doing it this time. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's more to it, but we don't have time. [SPEAKER_01]: But the point is, you know, I wrote the story on it and I really got thinking because the dynamite dynamite's doing well. [SPEAKER_01]: Like they're doing quite well right now in the ratings. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, I went back and I tracked. [SPEAKER_01]: The other two shows that went from two hours and then expanded those being nitro in 1998 and raw in 2013. [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Now.

1:04:32 [SPEAKER_01]: This would also be a good thing for perressing for dummies. [SPEAKER_01]: Neither of these collapsed when they gave you more for free. [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, both of them, when they started giving you more, they did well. [SPEAKER_01]: Nitro, when they moved from two to three hours, they did very well. [SPEAKER_01]: And raw, like people remember raw collapsing when they moved to three hours, it did not collapse immediately. [SPEAKER_01]: uh, Nitro lasted about 13 months and then started to decline and then of course, you know, they had horrible booking, so just like when at a business eventually, but with with raw, you know, when raw went to three hours, they did very well for like two years.

1:05:13 [SPEAKER_01]: But then after two years, [SPEAKER_01]: It fell hard in your three and it fell harder in year four. [SPEAKER_01]: And in both cases, you know, nitro and raw, they eventually went back to two hours. [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously with the raw, it was many years later and television has changed, but like neither after that collapse, neither ever came close to what they were doing before they moved to three hours. [SPEAKER_01]: So when I look at dynamite right now and all the product that they're putting out and how it's doing well, [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that is not unusual that in the short term you're giving people more product and like you're doing pretty well, but historically there has not been a promotion that has done this and it has been a benefit long term, like there comes a point where fans are just like, okay.

1:06:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I just like my life has changed, everyone's life changes, you know, every year and it's just too much and once that collapse starts it's like you can move to a solid two hours or whatever it's like those people don't come back so I would keep it at two hours and [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's, that's the, the why is decision, but he ain't going to do that. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, at least for now, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Because we know that in the current management, he's, he's been able to do this. [SPEAKER_00]: They support that show going into whatever scheduled for that next hour. [SPEAKER_00]: they do have the option coming, but Skydance is taking over this whole thing.

1:06:49 [SPEAKER_00]: So we'll see if they agree that they know one thing too, which is weird is everyone always goes, well, obviously they like it because, you know, they, they, uh, he just keeps doing it. [SPEAKER_01]: They, they must, they must like it and you know, it'll boost the rating for the and everything like that. [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what, like no one's answered this question for me. [SPEAKER_01]: Why when the show is taped, [SPEAKER_01]: Like if they're so cool with the show going long, why don't they let them go two and a half hours on a tape show? [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's still gonna do good number. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a question that nobody is answered. [SPEAKER_01]: It seems more to me like they allow it when like the show's live and he's like, I need another 20 minutes and they're like, all right, you know, whatever.

1:07:38 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm not sure that they're like, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this, this, this, oh, they're coming home on it. [SPEAKER_01]: They love it. [SPEAKER_01]: That might be worse. [SPEAKER_00]: It's like there shouldn't be a hard limit on a tape show. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that might be more about him not wanting to tire out that live audience who's got to sit through collision and then five more ROH matches after that show was over. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they don't tape our OH anymore. [SPEAKER_01]: They got that separate thing now. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: I remember going to shows where they did tape our OH and [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, I'll sit through dynamite, but like the, I like seeing this and then I'm going to go home and have feel like I saw dynamite and had fun and didn't labor through some of this other stuff.

1:08:22 [SPEAKER_00]: It is funny because like Tony is just like, [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, no one else. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how many times have you gone to that press conference after you have, after an AW pay per view? [SPEAKER_01]: And like, it's been a six-hour show with the pre-show and everything like that. [SPEAKER_01]: And then like, the, you know, the post show starts. [SPEAKER_01]: And this guy's like, he's just like out of his mind and he's talking and talking and talking and then he talks for another two hours. [SPEAKER_01]: And like, he's just, and everyone else in the audience like all the reporters, they're like, they're dying, they're just dying. [SPEAKER_00]: But like, he just keeps going. [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's kind of what you said that you enjoy about your job. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure he's similar and yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And even more, like, here's the thing that I am surprised.

1:09:08 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm impressed, but I'm kind of just more surprised, is that AEW seems to now be his main thing, but he's still got his hands in the other businesses. [SPEAKER_00]: And I am, does he do work on the jet? [SPEAKER_00]: Like when does he do his work all the time? [SPEAKER_00]: Like the amount of time. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, he probably utilizes more of that 24 hours than most people, and I don't know how he's able to do it. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the other thing is, I think people have this idea that he's working on dynamite in such all week, and he's not. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm not saying he doesn't do anything, but like, there's a reason that we don't have any matches, sometimes on a Tuesday, and I mean, there are, there are many times.

1:09:54 [SPEAKER_01]: where like last night, mystical, it's like, you know, mystical ends up on collision and days like, why didn't they announce this on the show? [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, well, if you watched, they didn't announce it at the beginning of dynamite. [SPEAKER_01]: But a couple of hours later, they did put a graphic up for it, and there are many times where collision is put together during dynamite. [SPEAKER_01]: It's not even put together before dynamite stars. [SPEAKER_01]: He's still trying to figure out matches as dynamite is going on. [SPEAKER_01]: For a collision that's coming immediately afterwards. [SPEAKER_00]: See now, here's a lot of stuff in the last second. [SPEAKER_00]: Here's the thing that I would like to see.

1:10:36 [SPEAKER_00]: I have, uh, you have YouTube TV and I have something similar with Hulu. [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, [SPEAKER_00]: It cuts off like who cuts off somewhere in the range of two minutes to like seven minutes after like it's not really consistent. [SPEAKER_00]: But when he does shows super duper long like last night. [SPEAKER_00]: it's not going to get it and sometimes I've watched dynamite thinking that the show is over only for somebody to tell me oh no there was like 15 more minutes of show yeah and they haven't solved that part of it yet so he must be doing all of that stuff at the very last minute oh yeah yeah i mean i i've been told that like he's he i don't know if it's so much now but i know that uh you know [SPEAKER_01]: a while ago, at least, like for overruns, like it was scheduled to end at the top of the hour.

1:11:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And during the show, he was calling, asking to do an overrun. [SPEAKER_01]: So it was, you know, I, um, it's funny because like I always complained about YouTube TV cutting off the overrun. [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, they're all just be able to go, just record the next show, just record it next show, even though you can't. [SPEAKER_01]: But that was interesting. [SPEAKER_01]: Like just record the next show. [SPEAKER_01]: Now, these shows are so long that these people that said to record the next show that did, [SPEAKER_01]: Still, Mr. Yeah, but he won 38 minutes instead of 30 minutes over. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Dave will Dave that's his that's his solution and I have to remind him that he still has a cable box. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and you can record hours on the cable box.

1:12:14 [SPEAKER_00]: and on what I have it's just recording shows. [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. [SPEAKER_00]: So if I have to go, if I'm watching dynamite that day and I have to remember, go into the live thing and figure out the shows that are after that and record those, there's no reason to have it. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not even like you can set a recording to, oh, no, you have to go in while the show is on or that morning or whatever and to me I'm like, well, why even have a DVR if I have to go through all of these hoops just to watch the end. [SPEAKER_00]: Now, the solution is just to watch on HBO Max, but I don't like the way that HBO Max works on my Apple TV. [SPEAKER_00]: As a result, as much as Tulu. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: The I don't like the HBO Max interface.

1:12:57 [SPEAKER_01]: I find it very inconvenient. [SPEAKER_01]: So I just watch on YouTube TV. [SPEAKER_01]: I got like a trick. [SPEAKER_01]: I just have to I just have to start the show before the show ends. [SPEAKER_01]: Click watch live and then rewind to the beginning and usually that will allow me to watch the [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like I got to figure out all these tricks to what and then you know sometimes like people go, you know they'll have the end to the recording and it's like, yeah, the next day like how does that help me if I got a new server radio and midnight I'm not going to day we got a record tomorrow night because YouTube TV is going to add the end like new in the next day it's like just do two hours and be done with it like [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

1:13:38 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's easier for everybody, you know, no barrier of entry for new fans. [SPEAKER_01]: You're not asking to new fan to commit three hours and 38 minutes on a Wednesday night. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: All right. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know what? [SPEAKER_01]: We got a promo code, everybody. [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to hear more, you can subscribe to Rustling Observer.com. [SPEAKER_01]: We got a promo code 50. [SPEAKER_01]: You can get 50% off the first month. [SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, you know, we do 85 podcasts a month. [SPEAKER_01]: Observer tomorrow is the Hall of Fame issue. [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to read the Hall of Fame issue, you can subscribe at half off. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's all sorts of great stuff. [SPEAKER_01]: The promo code is 50.

1:14:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So just go to rustingobserver.com. [SPEAKER_01]: You can click the subscribe button. [SPEAKER_01]: It asks for a promo code type in 50 and you can get half off. [SPEAKER_01]: So check it out. [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube as well. [SPEAKER_01]: All of those are 999 a month. [SPEAKER_01]: They're all great. [SPEAKER_01]: Spotify in particular, get audio and video for 999, all the podcasts. [SPEAKER_00]: I have figured out a trick to match the video, the audio from the audio and the video. [SPEAKER_00]: are now equal. [SPEAKER_00]: I have not been able to figure this out. [SPEAKER_00]: So when I upload that show that I do on Friday with Dave to Spotify, the audio is not quite as good as it would be if it was just a podcast.

1:15:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Really, I figured out how to get Adobe Audition and Adobe Premiere to work together and to basically have the same output for audio on the video shows. [SPEAKER_00]: So that will be starting tomorrow on Spotify. [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, so yeah, Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube and wrestlingobserv.com promo code 550 Check it out because the whole of fame issue if you like Dave arguing on Twitter if I got a day for you Well, and the the issue is going to be [SPEAKER_00]: flush with history. [SPEAKER_00]: He's going to have the Jim herd bio, which is the thing that I'm most looking forward to reading because that was like, I don't think I was watching more wrestling around the clock than I was in like 1991.

1:15:53 [SPEAKER_00]: So that is what I was doing this because of Jim herd. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what I heard this yesterday. [SPEAKER_01]: I have so surprised. [SPEAKER_01]: So was I. I had no idea the Jim herd was [SPEAKER_00]: that's incredible. [SPEAKER_00]: All right, check out if you haven't subscribed. [SPEAKER_00]: Definitely, you know, I've gifted subscriptions in the past because of the observer and because of these shows, I think it's one of those websites that you get hooked on and you create the community and maybe you'll come to a convention at one point. [SPEAKER_00]: If we get back to Vegas, so yeah, so it's been a blast.

1:16:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I like I said I've been a subscriber or a fan for 21 years, since like June of 2005 or something like that. [SPEAKER_01]: Wow, one of the very first ones. [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I appreciate it. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no. [SPEAKER_01]: You're the man, Garrett. [SPEAKER_01]: I love it. [SPEAKER_01]: I love it. [SPEAKER_01]: All right, that's life. [SPEAKER_00]: Fight club, everybody. [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_00]: We're on the same program, Brian and I are on the same program. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we are. [SPEAKER_00]: All right, that is it from here for Brian. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm WG. [SPEAKER_00]: We will see you when we see you piece out