John Cena's Final Loss - An Overthink or Perfect Booking? | Takedown

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[SPEAKER_01]: It is time for take down with Paul Fontaine here and we started this last week.

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[SPEAKER_01]: we're gonna do a little bit of a look back and then a look forward before we get into our main topic and as I think most people would think our main topic is gonna be just the overall presentation, experience, creative, all the news coming out of John Cena's retirement on Saturday night's main event.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But before that, Paul, what was the best thing

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[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I mean, probably like the best match I saw was the speed ball and call Fletcher on Dynamite.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that was great.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I watched a ton of great matches this week though.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm just looking, you know, yeah, everybody knows I keep a spreadsheet and I was like,

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[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There's like 13 matches that are like four stars are better than I saw.

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[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of it on the New Japan show.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I thought the how did you get to the tag league final?

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[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's so I haven't watched the B-block final yet or the tag league final.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But the match that Zach Saber Jr and Rio Heite O'Ewa had with Bishop on on

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[SPEAKER_00]: Wednesday was awesome.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I had that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that was just as good as the good to John Cena match and I really loved the going to John Cena match.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and knockout brothers and Umanon Ulymura in the was was a great match as well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that was to decide who is going into the playoff.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, you know, if you if you don't have a lot of time for New Japan, you just want to watch a couple great matches, I'd say those two were, uh, were two of the best tag team matches.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I saw a year in Japan, honestly.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So my, my favorite thing is actually going to be the John Cena and Gunther match.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, I think some folks who, uh,

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[SPEAKER_01]: might be a little frustrated at that take because you mentioned the match that everybody was talking about which was Kyle Fletcher and Speedball.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Add one giant issue with that match.

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[SPEAKER_01]: which is the idea of doing something that really hurts in real life and not selling it almost at all in the fake match.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm watching Speedball take this slam on his back on the barricade, which as you know, the barricade is not thick.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There's really no place to help take that bump.

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[SPEAKER_01]: and he gets up and he's got this giant red mark on his back.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think everyone watching that was just like, oh my gosh, that had to have sucked.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to guess that that sucked, taking that thing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so to me, if you're going to do something crazy like that, well, it should be the focal point

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[SPEAKER_01]: of the match, it should be the entire reason that speedball loses or is able to counter the attack on that part and then get to the finish.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Instead, I'm almost sure that this was a transition to go into the picture and picture.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I've got notes on I just pulled up my notes because I wanted to see where it was in the match and it was like I had it was like in the first third of my notes so you know that kind of tells you where you know where they were and I'm almost sure that during that picture in picture.

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[SPEAKER_01]: he does like a hurricane run on the outside or a poison runner or one of those moves very shortly after he took this spot on the barricade.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah and they I mean they showed him he was kind of half asselling it for like

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like 10 seconds.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then he just went on and like, and I'm sure it hurt and I'm sure, you know, like some people are going to look at that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, fighting spirit, you know, blah, blah, blah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, yeah, but you know what, like you said and I mean, what's that stormed website.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a work, you know, that's his business.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, the the the his company that I use.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I want to hear Brett Hart's thoughts on that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, right.

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[SPEAKER_00]: My money with the with the with the with the cruiser or the cruiser rate, the continental classic matches, you know, the tournament in general.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the matches are great, but I have a really hard time getting into this tournament like I am with other tournaments like,

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the New Japan Tag League, that's going on right now, the G1, because you can't anticipate matches because we have no idea when these matches are going to happen.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't watched collision yet, and other than Claudio and Tequesta, which is, I'm sure was a great match and it's important match and everything.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I have no idea what matches were on that show or if you can see

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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, they didn't and oh, they didn't announce that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I remember people talking about that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so speed ball and given that that's again.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's a fun.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There might have been one more that I get, but I'm with you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't watch the collision yet either.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know what, but they didn't announce that on because I remember we heard about that in the discord.

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[SPEAKER_00]: he's not he's even he's even less risky about that because yeah of the Darby injury right but let me ask you this do you think that Tony has these matches like lined up for a certain order or is he waiting to see who's available when to see who he can put with which guys on specific days and if it's the latter which I think it is then that hurts the booking of the tournament.

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[SPEAKER_00]: because you know, if you knew that, okay, on the last day, I'm going to do this match, you're building your matches to that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't think that's what's happening here.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's more

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[SPEAKER_00]: the last man standing, you know, and we'll try to get all these matches in.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So here's the bigger frustration on my end.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So that is just a spot in a match, watching it and I'm like, okay, this actually is part of the storytelling of this match.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is this is what we're going to see this thing was like really crazy and and and and hurtful and

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[SPEAKER_01]: And it was not at all.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't head had no lead up into the way that this match ended at all.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So it meant nothing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And this poor dude had to take this insane bump to kill his back.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then he had to let Russell on on Saturday too.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But um, so that that was my real frustration.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's the bigger picture of my overall frustration with AEW wrestling is that

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[SPEAKER_01]: The violence is just so much higher and we live in a day and age where when you and I were kids, the NFL was insane with the amount of things you could do to a quarterback with how you could tackle people.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And what the NFL did was they were like, okay.

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[SPEAKER_01]: this is going the wrong way.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We need to actually go backwards here.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We need to protect some of these players and it is still a brutal sport.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that it's not it is still brutal and the politics of the NFL is maybe the thing that I hate the most about professional sports.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But that being said.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They've dialed back the violence.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You can no longer lary it close line people around the shoulders.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You can no longer hit quarterbacks below the knees.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like all of these things are for the safety and the protection of these players.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And the game because you want these players to play longer than they were playing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You want at least the stars.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You want the stars to be on the field for a very long time.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like I heard a stat today that was like this is the first time in 28 years.

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[SPEAKER_01]: that Peyton Manning Tom Brady and Pat Mahomes will not be in the NFL playoffs.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like that is the longevity of that position.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So in in current wrestling, AEW is actually going the opposite way.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They're dialing up the violence.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They're causing their wrestlers to have to take more time away from in-ring.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Tony can't even book these shows because he has no idea who's hurt.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that is kind of the antithesis of what pro wrestling is supposed to be.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The reason why it's fake is so that you can get in the ring a few times a week versus it's not like the UFC where you get in a fight and you're out two weeks before you can even do anything because your body's hurting.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like the antithesis of pro wrestling is now the signature style of AEW.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There's going to be, you know, sickos out there who don't like that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I said that and I get it like you enjoy your entertainment and this is how you like your wrestling.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I feel guilty watching AEW sometimes and I'm not saying that I'm holier than now in this scenario, but part of the reason why I liked wrestling is because they weren't really killing each other.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was like this display.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It was like this performance of like,

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is, you know, we're trying to make you believe that it is real violent and it's not.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so wrestling today is more performance based with all the spots and the flips and the high spots and the athleticism.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, these guys are really hurting each other.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like this weird confluence of things that I find myself being more frustrated with as I watch AEW TV.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and the most frustrating thing about it is that there's you could take out like three or four spots out of that match and it would have been far less dangerous, but it's still would have been an incredible match.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's, and that's the frustrating thing as a fan, and as a critic, you know, and so, you know, whereas, you know, and that'll transition into what we're talking about with John Cena and your favorite match, Cena and Gunther, like, I mean, they gave off the appearance that, you know, that they were, you know, hurting each other and really physical and athletic and everything, but at the end of the day, John Cena got up and walked away and then I was scratching on him.

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[SPEAKER_01]: now they did they did do their own cheat code stuff in that we're seeing it hits the AA a bunch of times and he gets put in the sleeper a bunch of times so that that stuff is also cheap and it's also not the best storytelling but at the same time what they were going for

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[SPEAKER_01]: was trying to win, which is one of my other problems with A, W television is it is much more important to wow the crowd than it is to actually get them into buying that you can win this match.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And that may also just be a product of today's wrestling.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There's some stuff in WWE and NXT that does that as well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But when you look at it on this this big picture and I am not a WWE

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[SPEAKER_01]: PLE or big show defender.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I almost, I think this year has been actually under average when it comes to that and disappointing.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But that match, I think they did almost everything perfectly except one thing, which is the finish, which is, yeah, we're going to talk about in our discussion of this match.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's look ahead to this week.

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[SPEAKER_01]: What's the main thing that you're looking

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I guess, uh, honestly, like, I think I, I'm really looking forward to the, uh, AAA card on, uh, I can, the 20th, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: So Saturday, um, that, uh, it's loaded.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They got, they sold 20,000 tickets, like two weeks ahead of time, I think.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And, um, you know, and it's really like to me, it's, uh, I'm really, I think the story of 2026 for me that I'm really looking forward to is to see how much Dom Mysterio can level up.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's in AAA and in WWE, I think he's already there in AAA, like I think I credit a lot of the success that they're having to him and you know a little bit to Americano and then just the fact that wrestling in general is pretty hot in Mexico to begin with obviously with the success that CMLLs had and maybe that's a little bit as fill over you know like people I can't get in CML maybe they're going to AAA I don't know

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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't follow that closely enough to be able to say why it's hot.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I just know that it is and I see the reactions and that card that they put together on for Saturday is pretty loaded.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'd say that more than anything and then I think I'm just looking forward to having a break.

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[SPEAKER_00]: For the next few weeks, I think tonight's

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then the A.W.

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[SPEAKER_00]: doesn't have a live show after Wednesday until the paper view.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I believe.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so what am I looking most forward to?

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[SPEAKER_01]: I if I thought that this wasn't really angle based.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I would say Ray Mysterio in Logan Paul, which is on Raw later tonight, but because I kind of know that it's going to be more angle than actual wrestling, I think the thing that I am most intrigued with is this diamond battle royal and dynamite.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, yeah, you know that it's it's the idea of MJF.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I just want to see how they bring MJF back.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's my intrigue for the week because I think he's, you know, a giant star for them.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He's been, he's been away.

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[SPEAKER_01]: He does the thing where, you know, he goes away for a little while and when he comes back, he feels fresh again.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I like that about wrestling when guys do that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Secondly, would probably be the elite against the cows family.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm I'm worried about how we'll make a performs in that match like are we going to get two people right are we going to get A B plus version of Omega or C plus version of Omega and are we going to get a B plus version of Ocata or C plus version of Ocata, but I'm intrigued just because I love seeing Kenny on TV so those are Kenny any in Ocata and the same match I mean that's special.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so I'm super intrigued in both of those things.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But you know what the continental classic matches and I still have to watch the ones from collision.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The ones on Wednesday are kind of like the matches that I'm not interested in at all.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even have an idea because the last preview, I'm kind of listening to like a listening to like F4W audio and stuff and even our own site.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm listening to this stuff as I'm watching it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't the last preview I heard for

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Dina might have the two matches you just mentioned, but I didn't see any code continental classic matches.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because they waited until the weekend, obviously, yeah, so what does it hack in Fletcher, which should be good, but yeah, I mean, that should be great.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think Fletcher's losing again.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Moxley and Rodrick strong, Moxley's clearly getting a win back, unless he's just dropping out of this thing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he has to win.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is a draw.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I knew that had to be a draw like I predicted a draw if you go into the discord and it's hard to predict a draw, but I predicted a draw for that match because It's the only way to keep moxley alive.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so I do think moxley's going to be alive to last week, and he asked to win out and Claudio had to draw here.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Claudio has to be behind moxley because he hasn't played the tie breakers, so that was a good that was a good thing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The other potential draw was to catch day and orange Cassidy.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So we'll see if that happens.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I think speaking of Cassidy, he faces Dorada in the third.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, that's the second Blue League match for the third match.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And look, it's an interesting match, but it's really, you know, two guys who you know on B, that should be, that should have been on that special edition of A W Dark They did.

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[SPEAKER_00]: See that?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I did not, but I saw that they're going to do it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's on it's airing on Tuesday, I think.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Moxley's recently on it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And then, uh, slow Joe Hangman and Swerver doing a contract signing for their man.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so it's the three way.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's, so they did that last year, too.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Or this year.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, I think it was.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: They said Matt.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Three.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, three way, because it was, that was when Hangman is sort of refuting.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, and Hangman wanted the remat, wanted the one on one, and then swirving certain self-init, I think.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I think that was my storyline.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And then they did the follow-up, which is the one on one at the following paperview.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So.

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[SPEAKER_01]: All right.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about the John Cena thing here.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So what were your thoughts on

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[SPEAKER_01]: like the Saturday nights main event as a whole.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And from the perspective of both kind of the presentation and the video packages, as well as the matches.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Cause I think if you change the Cody and Oberthemmy finish, I probably like that show a lot better.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I know that the tag match didn't get a ton of time.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But I, and I wish that they would have had

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, three or four or five more minutes because I think they would have probably had a pretty darn great match and it was good for what it was, but it just seemed like they were kind of throw away ideas they weren't presented as all that important and I think if you're if the idea is we want to highlight and showcase these wrestlers who are on NXT.

18:22.508 --> 18:24.971
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you dial up the importance a little bit?

18:25.031 --> 18:28.415
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you make us think that these are actually big matches?

18:29.215 --> 18:30.677
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that they did that very well.

18:31.178 --> 18:39.547
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I thought I thought the Bailey Soul Rooka match was great for that, for what you're talking about, because I think it's finished though.

18:39.727 --> 18:44.192
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, they, what, we hit the Soul Snatcher Man.

18:44.212 --> 18:45.934
[SPEAKER_00]: This should be one, two, three.

18:45.914 --> 18:46.615
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, yeah.

18:46.875 --> 18:49.758
[SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, yeah, that should have finished the match.

18:49.798 --> 18:50.219
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

18:50.359 --> 19:01.592
[SPEAKER_00]: But I will say that when that soul snatcher hit, the reaction that it got was you could tell most of the people in the building had never seen that move before.

19:01.612 --> 19:01.712
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

19:02.313 --> 19:03.274
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was great.

19:03.294 --> 19:05.497
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's why the match was on there.

19:06.017 --> 19:14.487
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you wanted to expose her and specifically that move to an audience that I've never seen

19:14.821 --> 19:18.452
[SPEAKER_01]: or the the the thing that I thought that they didn't really know either was

19:18.854 --> 19:30.147
[SPEAKER_01]: Joe Hendry, I thought, oh yeah, that was a little muted of a response because they said that whole thing up for him to come out and then the crowd was like, yeah, yeah, like, who's that?

19:30.167 --> 19:39.498
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, you could clearly see and and honestly, like, there was one point when somebody said Joe Hendry kind of under the breath and it was like, you, that was where you should have got the big pop.

19:39.778 --> 19:40.960
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it was like nothing.

19:41.300 --> 19:45.385
[SPEAKER_00]: And well, the weird thing with that was the fans were cheering miss.

19:45.365 --> 20:08.200
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and and like even on was was it that or was it on SmackDown knows on SmackDown when he had the match they were cheering him as a baby against you on yes against your on yeah and I was just like wow this is like this is a mystery because it's not that they don't like Javan it's just they don't know Javan yeah and they like miss because they look at miss as a legend

20:08.180 --> 20:12.084
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where he is now because WWE has told us that for 20 years.

20:12.144 --> 20:15.448
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, not he hasn't been a legend for 20 years, but he's been around for 20 years.

20:15.548 --> 20:16.309
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

20:16.329 --> 20:24.057
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but I thought I thought the Cody and Obamatch was awesome until the finish, which is terrible.

20:24.998 --> 20:30.965
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and overall, like, and I think we got that comedy skit with Miss and Joe Hendry and our truth.

20:31.846 --> 20:37.512
[SPEAKER_00]: And man, like,

20:37.492 --> 20:40.620
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, but that's not what they wanted to do.

20:40.700 --> 20:45.612
[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, like if you listen to the crowd, maybe that's what they wanted.

20:45.912 --> 20:48.499
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that they wanted what they got in terms of that.

20:48.739 --> 20:49.301
[SPEAKER_01]: So okay.

20:49.321 --> 20:50.243
[SPEAKER_01]: So here's the thing, right?

20:50.423 --> 20:52.007
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this show?

20:52.679 --> 20:54.000
[SPEAKER_01]: We saw the ticket prices.

20:54.060 --> 20:58.565
[SPEAKER_01]: We even have somebody in our discord who went last minute, which was really cool.

20:58.665 --> 21:00.847
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, he still spent a good chunk of money.

21:00.868 --> 21:04.551
[SPEAKER_01]: But he kind of saves his savings himself, a good chunk of money as well.

21:05.532 --> 21:12.940
[SPEAKER_01]: And his, and when I saw the prices, my thought was, you're asking a lot for four matches.

21:14.261 --> 21:21.589
[SPEAKER_01]: Four matches in a two-hour

21:22.042 --> 21:23.264
[SPEAKER_01]: the the two hour mark.

21:23.384 --> 21:23.704
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, really.

21:23.724 --> 21:25.246
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought I thought it went a little longer than that.

21:25.266 --> 21:25.807
[SPEAKER_01]: But okay.

21:25.827 --> 21:29.372
[SPEAKER_01]: So so you're asking a lot.

21:29.412 --> 21:33.738
[SPEAKER_01]: You're asking for a lot of money for not a lot of content.

21:34.519 --> 21:44.353
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're banking on the idea that these John Cena video packages are going to do the job to get the crowd anticipating for that final moment of John Cena.

21:45.683 --> 21:54.133
[SPEAKER_01]: I would have, I would not have wanted to go to that show unless I was able to get in like a hundred bucks or for free.

21:55.294 --> 22:02.803
[SPEAKER_01]: But it seemed like it was like the place to be of maybe even more than Russell Mania was.

22:02.904 --> 22:07.489
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the, how they built this thing throughout the entire year,

22:07.807 --> 22:12.772
[SPEAKER_01]: to pack that building at the ticket prices that they put up there.

22:12.792 --> 22:14.033
[SPEAKER_01]: That was pretty impressive.

22:14.673 --> 22:18.157
[SPEAKER_01]: But I kind of wonder, was it enough?

22:18.417 --> 22:24.843
[SPEAKER_01]: If you do this again, let's say Brock Lesnar retires or maybe it's not, Brock is a different guy.

22:24.863 --> 22:33.291
[SPEAKER_01]: Randy Orton retires or something, you have a model for how to do this one, they're not John Cena.

22:33.311 --> 22:35.873
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not going to be as big.

22:36.528 --> 22:43.142
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, man, you give me four matches and three of them are you're telling me that they're not that that important.

22:44.024 --> 22:49.074
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the finish is kind of a little bit of a misread.

22:49.194 --> 22:54.545
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, but yeah, let me get your thoughts on on how John seen a loss.

22:54.566 --> 22:56.730
[SPEAKER_01]: What were your thoughts on the way that that match ended?

22:57.267 --> 23:10.972
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, okay, so it's funny because right before the finish, you had that moment where the crowd was chanting, don't give up, don't give up, don't give up, which I've been watching wrestling for 50 years.

23:11.012 --> 23:14.077
[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard thousands of chance.

23:14.899 --> 23:17.644
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of them are choreographed.

23:17.664 --> 23:21.250
[SPEAKER_00]: I had a time, you know, like you can, you know they're coming before they come.

23:21.770 --> 23:36.927
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't recall ever hearing that chant and the fact that all those people chanted it at the same time, uh, unprovoked, you know, told you something that they were asking about they kind of knew they're about to get screwed.

23:37.261 --> 23:54.983
[SPEAKER_00]: well yeah and or they were just maybe they were into the story and like so for me like watching I kind of went into this I would say like a month ago I was thinking okay that you know we know Gunther's gonna win this tournament he's probably gonna be Johnson on the way out that makes the most sense

23:54.963 --> 24:09.681
[SPEAKER_00]: Then they did this storyline with Gunther, submitting people in the tournament, and then specifically with Ellen Knight, giving him a move that looked a lot like the STF and saying, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make you do what you've never done and that's give up.

24:10.582 --> 24:13.286
[SPEAKER_00]: And as soon as he said that, it's like, okay, scene has got to win.

24:13.586 --> 24:16.870
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's just, you use that move.

24:16.850 --> 24:18.313
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that was the other thing.

24:18.373 --> 24:19.275
[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't use the move.

24:19.817 --> 24:22.683
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he also, he made him give up.

24:22.803 --> 24:23.545
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the thing.

24:23.946 --> 24:28.636
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure I wonder if Sina was like, my neck doesn't really bend that way anymore.

24:28.977 --> 24:30.581
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

24:30.801 --> 24:35.652
[SPEAKER_00]: Now my thing was, okay, I would have not have been upset.

24:35.851 --> 24:37.894
[SPEAKER_00]: with the fact that he lost.

24:38.055 --> 24:41.280
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it was a misread, maybe they could have called notable.

24:41.540 --> 24:43.283
[SPEAKER_00]: Clearly, they made decision at a time.

24:43.884 --> 24:45.687
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like, oh, shit, we heard that chant.

24:45.707 --> 24:46.889
[SPEAKER_00]: We better change the finish.

24:48.311 --> 24:52.037
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also think it wasn't so much

24:52.017 --> 24:54.923
[SPEAKER_00]: the fact that he quit, it was the way he quit.

24:55.684 --> 24:59.552
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I'm watching with people that aren't as hardcore as you were right.

25:00.053 --> 25:01.596
[SPEAKER_00]: They're WWE fans.

25:01.616 --> 25:03.179
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't watch any other product.

25:03.319 --> 25:04.581
[SPEAKER_00]: They mean a little bit of TNA.

25:05.022 --> 25:10.633
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't watch a W. They don't watch Japan, you know, like they're just pretty much strictly WWE fans.

25:10.613 --> 25:18.761
[SPEAKER_00]: But they also know a little bit about, you know, like they know me and you know we talk about things and you know everybody knows a little bit about what goes on our backstage.

25:18.781 --> 25:21.644
[SPEAKER_00]: You see unreal and everything like that right.

25:21.664 --> 25:40.063
[SPEAKER_00]: So they see John Cena with a smile on his face and a tap and they're like, oh well he's just saying we want to meet a tap fine here you go.

25:40.651 --> 26:06.439
[SPEAKER_00]: put this in the words better than the story they told on the air and her she tweeted out a picture of that reaction and her thing was don't don't cry because it's over small because it happened and that was what John Cena was doing I think he was okay it's done you know I'm done you know you're the better man you know I lose that was his mentality I believe in in that moment

26:06.976 --> 26:22.172
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of fans watching, and especially the people that were in that building may have looked at it the way my friends did because when Triple H came out, they sure as hell let him know that they did not like what they just saw.

26:22.792 --> 26:24.994
[SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't, I don't think it was heat on Gunther.

26:25.635 --> 26:27.097
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it was heat on Cena.

26:27.677 --> 26:29.759
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was heat on the boss.

26:31.421 --> 26:35.245
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, that was that was

26:35.984 --> 26:43.232
[SPEAKER_01]: I was 50, 50 in thinking that maybe Triple H was going to change his mind.

26:43.272 --> 26:46.816
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, okay, it's very possible that scene is losing this match.

26:47.257 --> 26:52.022
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a fan, you have to kind of be okay with that, right?

26:52.183 --> 26:57.268
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can't, you can't only expect whatever you want to happen to be the only outcome.

26:57.288 --> 27:05.738
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the only way you're going to be happy about the situation.

27:07.743 --> 27:34.392
[SPEAKER_01]: We make moments and the best moment in the history of WWE could have been John Cena winning that match and going off on somebody shoulders like if you think about the feel good moments in pro wrestling or let's just say let's keep it to WWE right

27:35.333 --> 27:41.763
[SPEAKER_01]: Brian Danielson winning at WrestleMania 30, you're always going to remember that moment.

27:42.865 --> 27:51.759
[SPEAKER_01]: The reason is because we were still wondering if they were going to fuck him in that match, right?

27:51.939 --> 27:52.881
[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's a little bit.

27:52.941 --> 27:53.241
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

27:53.542 --> 27:56.547
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you kind of knew, but you still didn't know.

27:56.887 --> 28:00.032
[SPEAKER_01]: Once he beat Triple H, I think we were a little bit more convinced.

28:00.753 --> 28:02.556
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, in the in the opener,

28:03.650 --> 28:21.304
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking of Eddie beating Brock was another fantastic one now the the part that they take out of that match is the goldberg interference because they want you to forget that that yes is the reason why anyone but that's the reason why anyone.

28:21.824 --> 28:22.786
[SPEAKER_01]: uh part of the reason.

28:23.106 --> 28:27.254
[SPEAKER_00]: Well that would be also Mick Foley's win too is another big one and that was stone cold.

28:27.414 --> 28:29.157
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they're okay with that considering.

28:29.237 --> 28:29.518
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

28:29.578 --> 28:35.328
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't cold with his very stiff and plus it can put the heat on Shalani on.

28:35.348 --> 28:35.449
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.

28:35.469 --> 28:35.569
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

28:35.589 --> 28:43.984
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's those moments that we think about when we think of like like we're not that we think about, but what we remember

28:45.044 --> 28:50.716
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I mean, a big loss that we remember would be Brock, uh, beating the undertaker.

28:51.157 --> 28:53.822
[SPEAKER_00]: See, but I don't even find that to be that great of a moment.

28:53.962 --> 28:56.888
[SPEAKER_00]: It's because you don't like the undertaker is part of a bigger part.

28:56.928 --> 29:00.255
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, well, I should be happy then because he lost right, but you don't.

29:00.356 --> 29:02.640
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you don't like either guys, so to you that that.

29:02.700 --> 29:06.428
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I mean, I like I like Brock the pro wrestler.

29:06.408 --> 29:07.410
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

29:07.430 --> 29:07.530
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

29:07.550 --> 29:08.292
[SPEAKER_00]: I just like to me.

29:08.312 --> 29:28.652
[SPEAKER_01]: That's one of the first moments that pops into my head because that was just a shock that was that was that one seemed like it was a shock for the sake of being a shock and it was a surprise To the sake of being a surprise there was no build up the build up to that match was actually very poor and so when it happened I was like yeah, I'm shocked, but

29:29.543 --> 29:41.697
[SPEAKER_01]: Who cares like I like we weren't ready for it like and look they had to then they utilized it pretty well with Brock after the fact as far as trying to make him into that killer like that's that that was good.

29:42.149 --> 29:54.750
[SPEAKER_01]: But my point is mostly that if they are talking about moments being the most important thing in their company, they had the opportunity to create possibly the best one of all time and they just chose not to do it.

29:55.251 --> 30:00.920
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is their choice, Triple H said, you know, I will always choose what is best for business.

30:01.762 --> 30:08.072
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is his job that is his role, that is the responsibility that he has

30:09.655 --> 30:13.540
[SPEAKER_01]: But let's not make it about this was John's choice at the same time.

30:13.740 --> 30:17.905
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, John could have wanted to do something, just like Sting wanted to do something.

30:18.486 --> 30:27.156
[SPEAKER_01]: And the person who's got control of the pencil as Jim Ross always says is the one who makes the final call and we know that that's triple H. Like, think about it.

30:27.176 --> 30:34.345
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you're Nick Khan and if you're Mark Shapiro, like these are the guys who run TKO and WWE, right?

30:34.986 --> 30:39.291
[SPEAKER_01]: You think Mark Shapiro knows who in the Blue Hell

30:39.743 --> 30:48.102
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I guess the idea would be that maybe he doesn't now, but in a year from now he will, and this will be the reason why one of the reasons.

30:48.122 --> 30:49.425
[SPEAKER_00]: Is Gunther gonna be a baby face?

30:51.569 --> 30:55.879
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think so, because you have you have your placing.

30:56.112 --> 30:59.677
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, maybe they're their single best created baby face of all time.

30:59.937 --> 31:14.696
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I guess the ultimate thing I think it was John Muse will put him over a little bit like his his scenario that he painted was that this could end up being the first part of what eventually leads to the next big baby face being dominant in stereo.

31:15.237 --> 31:15.437
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

31:15.417 --> 31:18.121
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's there's a lot of projection there.

31:18.141 --> 31:18.482
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't.

31:18.542 --> 31:19.083
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure.

31:19.223 --> 31:22.307
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, and there's I mean, and will they go ahead with it?

31:22.327 --> 31:32.443
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I actually actually trust John Muses instincts on stuff like that a little bit more than I trust Triple H is an only because Triple H is dealing with so many other things.

31:32.763 --> 31:39.673
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, and you can see it like you could you could see this scenario that John John painted like here.

31:39.934 --> 31:43.399
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the last thing that I wonder when it comes to this kind of

31:44.645 --> 31:45.726
[SPEAKER_01]: decision.

31:47.288 --> 31:56.379
[SPEAKER_01]: How much of this was performative for bullshit, unseasoned season three, or unreal season three.

31:56.399 --> 32:07.371
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I mean, maybe 80% of it can triple age just talking about there's so much pressure on me to get this story right.

32:07.431 --> 32:14.179
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to end this thing correctly.

32:14.159 --> 32:41.989
[SPEAKER_01]: going through we've been trying to make this guy for a long time and we've progressed now that's the opportunity to send him into the stratosphere and this is kind of my responsibility and all the pressure associated with that and I just got to do what is best for biz like I can already see it like I'm already frustrated that season two we're going to see the Seth Rollins BS from when he was fake injured like we're already going to see that

32:41.969 --> 32:47.710
[SPEAKER_01]: is part of the decision-making process now in, yeah, you know.

32:48.567 --> 33:16.397
[SPEAKER_00]: you know my favorite moment of that match was it was right as the match was starting when John Cena just and it felt organic and I don't know if it was but it definitely felt like it was when he noticed all those people in the front row and he just stopped what he was doing and went and said hi to them and was hugging them and like it just looked like he was generally like oh my god you guys are here cool you know like I don't know if like

33:16.377 --> 33:33.643
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and he John Cena's actually pretty good actor, so I mean, it's possible that he was acting, but like it seemed genuine and I just loved it, but then when you're talking about this now, and I'm thinking, oh, it's probably just you know, you know, you know who he didn't hug.

33:33.623 --> 33:34.504
[SPEAKER_01]: Sammy's kid.

33:34.705 --> 33:35.526
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, I think he did.

33:35.546 --> 33:35.906
[SPEAKER_01]: He did.

33:35.966 --> 33:37.729
[SPEAKER_01]: No, Nick Khan was right behind.

33:37.749 --> 33:38.209
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

33:38.250 --> 33:39.551
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Nick Khan was his head.

33:39.571 --> 33:41.374
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't I don't think Nick Khan really.

33:41.434 --> 33:43.257
[SPEAKER_00]: Pretty sure it's a decklem there too somewhere.

33:43.617 --> 33:44.058
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, is it?

33:44.338 --> 33:45.099
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, somewhere.

33:45.560 --> 33:48.524
[SPEAKER_00]: But, uh, and Elijah, they didn't point him out, but he was there.

33:48.844 --> 33:49.265
[SPEAKER_00]: He was.

33:49.686 --> 33:52.830
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so ultimately.

33:52.810 --> 34:04.407
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going to I can already sense this conversation that I'm going to have to John the Rock on the fight game podcast how he's just going to be so over the moon about what they did because he's also a giant gunther fan.

34:04.792 --> 34:24.960
[SPEAKER_01]: And I am just not 100% sure that this was the right way to do things because you had the opportunity to have your, and this goes back to everything Vince McMahon said, oh, this is why WWE is better than UFC, we can keep Chuck LaDella's champion instead of having rampage beat him.

34:25.160 --> 34:50.678
[SPEAKER_01]: you could have created the best moment in the history of the company and had John and seeing it going out on a shield and on somebody's shoulders and just created like the imagine the social media that would have come out of that moment from everybody who has watched John Cena over the years who might not really be into wrestling that much anymore.

34:51.012 --> 34:58.954
[SPEAKER_01]: to go like man, you know, this is this is what I loved about John, this was what I loved about pro wrestling growing up like this is the man.

34:59.395 --> 35:03.165
[SPEAKER_01]: Like both of my kids reach one of my kids reached out to me and he was like,

35:04.141 --> 35:05.243
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, what the heck was that?

35:05.363 --> 35:07.648
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that's triple H, just call as like, yep.

35:08.810 --> 35:16.124
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the other kid just tweeted an Instagram story saying, you know, that that's his goat.

35:16.184 --> 35:17.787
[SPEAKER_01]: His pro-rusting goat is John Cena.

35:18.308 --> 35:25.542
[SPEAKER_01]: But if we would have got that whole thing of John Cena kind of, you know, celebrating the win,

35:25.724 --> 35:28.672
[SPEAKER_01]: we would have seen way more social media stuff too.

35:28.712 --> 35:35.289
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just, you know, that there's there's risks in doing whatever they didn't they chose to do the gut their way.

35:35.309 --> 35:40.864
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you felt any differently about it if he wouldn't have tapped, but if he would have like went out?

35:41.502 --> 35:51.595
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you know what I mean like he he's trying to fight he's trying to fight and then he just he can't fight anymore and and he just like he's out Shayna basilar had a fun tweet.

35:51.795 --> 35:57.622
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like a tap doesn't mean quitting or doesn't mean surrender or something like that.

36:00.266 --> 36:04.371
[SPEAKER_01]: I forget exactly what she said, but I think her meaning was like sometimes you tap.

36:06.376 --> 36:13.123
[SPEAKER_01]: so that you can do it again, you can wake up and, you know, go, go about your day.

36:13.163 --> 36:30.561
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just think that the submission was probably because of the story that you mentioned that Gunther was telling,

36:31.402 --> 36:34.426
[SPEAKER_00]: So what if I told you tapping is not always giving up?

36:34.747 --> 36:34.967
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

36:35.007 --> 36:36.309
[SPEAKER_01]: That was interesting.

36:37.130 --> 36:37.230
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

36:38.272 --> 36:42.157
[SPEAKER_01]: I maybe I would have been happier with a wrestling hold.

36:42.177 --> 36:42.478
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

36:42.498 --> 36:44.541
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know actually what I would have rather seen.

36:44.941 --> 36:52.532
[SPEAKER_01]: I think Cena's like his actual emotion of like just basically saying,

36:52.934 --> 36:57.620
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no way out of this thing like you got me you got me you're the better guy tonight.

36:57.800 --> 37:11.839
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is him like that is that is his personality and that is kind of how this whole run has gone is like Hey, live to see another day like that's kind of his mentality and so that was okay.

37:12.179 --> 37:21.692
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm less bothered by him going out like that then I then I would have been if I was just having this conversation with you on Saturday night.

37:21.672 --> 37:39.883
[SPEAKER_00]: And my reaction could be based on the people I was watching with too and how they reacted and me just kind of thinking well if they thought that how many other people thought that, you know, because I certainly didn't, but it would have been interesting if you went to sleep because I always remember the Chris Liban quote or he's like,

37:40.353 --> 37:48.984
[SPEAKER_01]: You could never tap like you just have to go out like a man, I don't know, the way that Chris Lee been what a said it's probably like, oh, you got to go out like a man or something.

37:49.004 --> 37:55.273
[SPEAKER_00]: I remember moxley, um, I think he tapped once and it was like the whole narrative around it.

37:55.333 --> 37:56.755
[SPEAKER_00]: This was in I think it was a hangman.

37:57.055 --> 38:02.462
[SPEAKER_00]: The narrative was when you tap your basically telling everybody, this is the better man.

38:02.442 --> 38:21.632
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like you're you're you're giving you're you're tapping to them as opposed to just going out and you're not giving them the satisfaction of having tapped you know, you know, but you know what you know why that audience probably didn't react their correct ways because it's not a UFC audience right, oh yeah, yeah, and it's not a W audience.

38:21.612 --> 38:23.815
[SPEAKER_01]: had it was a John Cena audience.

38:24.936 --> 38:26.478
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we only what did we have?

38:26.538 --> 38:30.343
[SPEAKER_01]: We had the we had the LA night match where he had to tap out.

38:30.403 --> 38:32.386
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was maybe a little bit of the training.

38:32.866 --> 38:35.550
[SPEAKER_01]: Did Gunther tap anybody else out in that tournament?

38:36.611 --> 38:38.974
[SPEAKER_01]: Not sure because he's got a bunch of different finishers.

38:39.895 --> 38:43.059
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to remember because the power bomb would have been yeah.

38:43.319 --> 38:43.960
[SPEAKER_00]: That was it.

38:44.180 --> 38:45.162
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought he was going to win.

38:45.442 --> 38:47.805
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't see and I wouldn't have like

38:47.785 --> 39:07.482
[SPEAKER_00]: If he would have got pinned with no kickout, oh man, I think I think there would have been massive booze, so he beats solo and I believe that was a pin and then the other one he beat was Carmella Hayes and that was definitely a pin.

39:07.715 --> 39:15.650
[SPEAKER_01]: So, oh and, and Javane Evans as well, and yeah, so it's not so when you go when you talk about like, oh, you know, they knew what they were going to do.

39:15.811 --> 39:23.826
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure they knew because if this story was that scene was tapping from day one, Gunther taps everybody out in this.

39:23.866 --> 39:24.407
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

39:24.387 --> 39:25.609
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, no.

39:25.729 --> 39:52.150
[SPEAKER_00]: It was only when when Gunther did that promo that there's where you thought, okay, you know, like he's either there's two finishes either he submits Sina or Sina submits him like those are the only two finishes and in fact, I was just reading the observer and there was like, you know, that betting odds article there was like a prop on, you know, the match will end in submission and it was like three like one to three were the odds so I was like

39:52.130 --> 39:55.960
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to bet 300 to win 100, you know, like that.

39:56.060 --> 39:58.947
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's pretty clear that the match was going to end by submission.

39:59.108 --> 40:00.892
[SPEAKER_00]: Either one of the two guys was going to get it.

40:01.935 --> 40:07.489
[SPEAKER_00]: Lance is probably going to be another one that would like this because I think he was calling for good third of win.

40:07.469 --> 40:09.653
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, and to submit them.

40:09.913 --> 40:19.551
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, I mean, it was, you know, in that sense, like, again, I think, but, but I do think the reaction was interesting, and certainly, I wasn't expecting it.

40:20.012 --> 40:24.600
[SPEAKER_00]: Like when when triple H comes out at the head of all of this talent.

40:24.580 --> 40:38.050
[SPEAKER_00]: And as soon as this face is on the screen, you hear booze, like I don't know if I've ever heard that since he's been, you know, he'll, you know, probably since he wrestled Roman, you know, like, I mean, that's a long time ago since before the heart attack.

40:40.460 --> 40:48.929
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, him propping himself up as like the top person in the company is biting him a little bit.

40:49.931 --> 40:52.894
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't even know if he realizes that that's what he's doing.

40:52.934 --> 40:55.657
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I mentioned this when he was in the WrestleMania commercial.

40:56.498 --> 40:58.460
[SPEAKER_01]: What is he in the WrestleMania commercial for?

40:59.261 --> 40:59.601
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

40:59.621 --> 41:00.622
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not wrestling.

41:01.203 --> 41:10.213
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Scott, Scott Young thinks that he likes it.

41:10.193 --> 41:11.334
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, he likes the booze.

41:11.374 --> 41:12.556
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he likes booze.

41:12.616 --> 41:18.863
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I think the booze caught him off guard a little bit like you thought did you?

41:18.883 --> 41:20.164
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that video that they played.

41:21.105 --> 41:22.186
[SPEAKER_00]: I was disappointed in that.

41:22.407 --> 41:25.810
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was the exact same video they played for his 20th anniversary.

41:26.211 --> 41:28.473
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, was it just they just added a couple things to it.

41:28.934 --> 41:38.985
[SPEAKER_00]: But like I was I don't know like I was expecting to be like moved maybe I was a little missed by the finish and so didn't affect me as much.

41:38.965 --> 41:58.512
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then that was a really old Vince club that's seeing scene a reactivants See the one he really reacts to yeah It's good as his hero scene is hero man Vince McMahon who who would have thought yeah now that he has a dad by the way What the hell yeah, he doesn't doesn't I think he doesn't him and his dad are kind of a little on the outs.

41:58.552 --> 41:59.353
[SPEAKER_00]: I think

41:59.587 --> 42:06.734
[SPEAKER_01]: I heard that's the whole like the whole vehicle for him to be and wrestling and he loves to make man so much.

42:07.235 --> 42:08.596
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, all right.

42:08.616 --> 42:09.037
[SPEAKER_01]: That was good.

42:09.757 --> 42:10.919
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know what?

42:11.479 --> 42:26.775
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm happy that we went on this journey with John and you know, we're probably going to have to talk about him all that much, although I kind of thought about this, what if we finally do get Gunther and Brock Lesnar at WrestleMania?

42:26.941 --> 42:33.743
[SPEAKER_01]: And John Cena's your referee the two guys who smoked him in this in as a final year, that'd be interesting.

42:35.508 --> 42:38.959
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and and I mean, and I think going to what have to win there, right?

42:39.530 --> 42:53.809
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that would be that would be and then him raising good there's hand that would be, you know, kind of this send off right like the actual because you're probably going to Hall of Fame, maybe even Stephanie going in the same year would actually be kind of what it would make a lot of sense.

42:53.829 --> 42:54.010
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

42:54.170 --> 42:54.470
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

42:54.811 --> 43:01.139
[SPEAKER_00]: And although they may want to save him for next year, um, because I don't know who else will go to Saudi.

43:02.161 --> 43:03.222
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's right.

43:03.703 --> 43:07.528
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it could be punk because they made John Cena cry when punk was there.

43:07.508 --> 43:09.011
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.

43:09.031 --> 43:12.377
[SPEAKER_00]: So overall, what would you give, what would you give his retirement run?

43:12.677 --> 43:15.723
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you do better than, than Bleacher reports F?

43:16.104 --> 43:16.945
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's better than that.

43:17.166 --> 43:24.559
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I, I, I cannot go back on, I feel like I was like the loudest person on that heel turn.

43:24.579 --> 43:28.386
[SPEAKER_01]: You were, you were very publicly.

43:28.501 --> 43:51.589
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I cannot go back on that so it cannot get the highest of of high grades for me because I thought that the it they just went they weren't ready for it they did not know they were going there and they didn't have a way to get out of it and they're just thankful that

43:51.569 --> 43:57.056
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say be minus probably the highs were high though.

43:57.196 --> 44:09.412
[SPEAKER_01]: If you go back to Royal Rumble, J. Uso knocking him off, like you had, it had to be seen a or someone at that level for it to have meant as much to J or for J.

44:09.952 --> 44:13.457
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the elimination chamber, I thought that was a great moment.

44:15.099 --> 44:20.766
[SPEAKER_01]: You can go to the the Summer Slam match with Cody, which was, I thought really good.

44:20.746 --> 44:27.833
[SPEAKER_01]: The AJ match you liked it more than I did, but I understood what it was and then the Dom stuff was fun.

44:27.914 --> 44:28.794
[SPEAKER_01]: It was really fun.

44:28.895 --> 44:34.460
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm not going to say that it was great and I did use the word fun specifically because that's what I got out of.

44:34.520 --> 44:36.082
[SPEAKER_01]: It was fun more than anything else.

44:36.983 --> 44:41.848
[SPEAKER_01]: And and the way that they ended, I thought he was he was really strong.

44:41.908 --> 44:50.297
[SPEAKER_01]: Now his outside of wrestling interviews were a little frustrating, but that's just who he is and who he's always

44:51.290 --> 45:09.433
[SPEAKER_00]: when he was on Wrestling Observer Live with Brian Dave back in the 2000 and more than whatever that was he was while back then best before my time I didn't hear any of that yeah I would go I would go be you know so I'm pretty close to you you know like in terms of like the business obviously you know

45:09.413 --> 45:38.290
[SPEAKER_00]: a plus plus creative, you know, like C-minus maybe, you know, like obviously the heel turn was bad and, you know, and I didn't like the finish of the, of the last match and, you know, and then there's some stuff along the way, like, did he fight, did he wrestle the right guys, did he put over the right guys, you know, and I think you can make a case either way, and if people didn't like what he did, I understand what they're saying and that was the focus of the bleacher part of our coat, but,

45:38.270 --> 45:55.738
[SPEAKER_00]: you know if you if you go by what they they wanted I mean he would have been losing all his matches and and you know and he would have been wrestling people that nobody knows so would have done the business probably not you know but yeah maybe you make a guy in the way I don't know why didn't Tony do you taxina instead of the eighth page or whatever

45:55.718 --> 46:08.698
[SPEAKER_01]: or why didn't, you know, trick come out, you know, and trick was one that I thought was a natural because I just think trick is kind of the extension of John, like if there's no John Cena, trick is like, that's the blueprint for trick.

46:09.479 --> 46:20.275
[SPEAKER_00]: But it could have even done something like having him and trick like when the tag team titles, you know, in the last match or something like that, and then you like vacate them or something, and you know, like something like that.

46:20.255 --> 46:48.658
[SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, they did the, you know, they tease the vacating, you know, with with Ray and the or with Dom and and him Dom can now say he's the last guy to pin John Cena for that cool, you know, and I'm sure he will, you know, so that's cool that was actually a positive for seeing a winning the match is for Dom always be the last guy to beat him if you go back to the beginning of the year, I said on many occasions that.

46:49.297 --> 46:51.668
[SPEAKER_01]: 2025 is going to be fantastic for them.

46:51.929 --> 46:55.064
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason is is because they have this Sina run.

46:55.084 --> 46:57.535
[SPEAKER_01]: 2026.

46:58.375 --> 47:20.822
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it will be a bigger challenge business wise because what is going to be their marquee 2024 was Cody 2025 was the scene around what is 2026 bringing us what is the thing that they're going to be able to hang their hat on to continue the business run that they've been on.

47:21.241 --> 47:22.643
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's that's the tough one.

47:22.683 --> 47:27.089
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I said, Dom, but I don't think it's, it's not so much about him being the centerpiece.

47:27.109 --> 47:30.614
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more about him being positioned to be the next centerpiece.

47:31.355 --> 47:35.521
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so yeah, I mean, is it, is it punk?

47:37.163 --> 47:40.628
[SPEAKER_00]: Could be, I don't think it's Cody.

47:40.688 --> 47:42.371
[SPEAKER_00]: Cody feels like he's pulled off a little bit.

47:43.973 --> 47:44.894
[SPEAKER_00]: Jacob thought too.

47:45.675 --> 47:51.163
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if he's there.

47:51.633 --> 47:51.914
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

47:51.954 --> 47:52.234
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

47:52.314 --> 47:53.757
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be tough.

47:53.777 --> 47:54.559
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be tough.

47:54.579 --> 47:56.583
[SPEAKER_01]: So strippel H wants the kudos.

47:57.043 --> 47:59.729
[SPEAKER_01]: He's got a good job on it on his hands.

47:59.769 --> 48:10.109
[SPEAKER_01]: He'll at the same time part of his job is understanding when they have to take chances and when they don't have to take chances and they didn't take very many chances this year because they didn't need to.

48:10.690 --> 48:10.890
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

48:10.970 --> 48:12.714
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they may need to next year.

48:13.014 --> 48:14.417
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely.

48:14.397 --> 48:15.138
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.

48:15.800 --> 48:16.501
[SPEAKER_01]: Good discussion.

48:17.122 --> 48:26.660
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for hanging out and Paul and we'll see if we do something next week because the next two weeks are holiday weeks and that gets little crazier, but if we have the time we'll do something.

48:27.461 --> 48:33.052
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I mean, my next might like in terms of like regular life next week will be pretty dead for me.

48:33.593 --> 48:34.094
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

48:34.114 --> 48:35.276
[SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome.

48:35.356 --> 48:36.979
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, whether we have anything to talk about.

48:36.959 --> 48:37.380
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

48:37.420 --> 48:38.402
[SPEAKER_00]: That'll be a big thing.

48:38.803 --> 48:43.612
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but you and you and you and dynamite three hours this week.

48:43.632 --> 48:44.714
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's too.

48:44.754 --> 48:46.097
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they're doing an hour collision.

48:46.157 --> 48:47.760
[SPEAKER_00]: So our policy is we only reviewed.

48:47.780 --> 48:48.081
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

48:48.301 --> 48:48.582
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

48:48.622 --> 48:50.967
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to do dynamite we're doing dynamite this week.

48:51.387 --> 48:51.908
[SPEAKER_00]: Next week.

48:51.928 --> 48:55.255
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to do a special show on the 26th.

48:55.235 --> 49:04.393
[SPEAKER_00]: we're going to cover dynamite and collision and then we're going to preview the paper view and then the following week when dynamite's a New Year's Eve, we're not doing a show on New Year's Eve.

49:04.413 --> 49:12.248
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to do probably New Year's Day and we're going to do what we call our annual half-assed dynamite review and the hook awards.

49:12.228 --> 49:13.351
[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.

49:13.712 --> 49:15.416
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the old boom awards there.

49:15.457 --> 49:15.838
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

49:15.958 --> 49:16.339
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

49:16.359 --> 49:21.312
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm we're actually going to try and get Kevin and James on, but I don't know if we will, but we're ready to go.

49:21.332 --> 49:21.874
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

49:21.894 --> 49:22.214
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

49:22.475 --> 49:22.796
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

49:22.956 --> 49:23.418
[SPEAKER_00]: Take care.

49:23.759 --> 49:28.110
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening for Paul MWP's out.